MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu mbers

Alan,

I've got terminal services to run quite nicely under Linux using the
rdesktop project (www.rdesktop.org). Very clean installation from
the source, just run the make command on the untarred source and you
can then run the rdesktop binary with your server name as a
parameter. It seems its only dependency is the presence of X, so you
could build this into a VERY thin solution - would probably all fit
onto a single floppy disk.

Let me know if you have any questions,
• Adam Ellis, Systems Administrator
• Accel Group, Inc.
325 Quadral Dr.
Wadsworth, OH 44281
• Voice: 330-336-0317 x150
• Fax: 330-336-1224
• E-mail: adame@...


--- In vantage@y..., "Alan Williams" <awilliams@s...> wrote:
> "Interesting" won't even begin to describe it, I think. :-) Have
you
> succeeded in running TS on Linux yet? If so, would LUVS to hear
details.
> Thanx,
> Alan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@b...]
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 7:03 AM
> To: 'vantage@y...'
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's
some nu
> mbers
>
>
> Exactly, Alan. And yes, WINE is another one I am going to test.
This
> will
> be an interesting year...
>
> Paul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan Williams [mailto:awilliams@s...]
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 2:48 PM
> To: vantage@y...
> Subject: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's
some nu
> mbers
>
>
> Paul, Are you talking about running the Terminal Server client
on a Linux
> desktop? We're keeping an eye on Lindows as well, along
with "Crossover
> Office" (Thanx to Adam Ellis!) from the folks who brought us WINE:
> www.codeweavers.com --anything to escape the clutches of der
Fuhrer Gates.
> Thanx,
> Alan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@b...]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:14 PM
> To: 'vantage@y...'
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's
some nu
> mbers
>
>
> Todd,
> No, I am not (yet). However, there are good Windows emulators
lurking
> around the corner that will allow you to do those things. I
can't wait
> to
> get my hands on a product called "Lindows" (www.lindows.com)
and play
> with
> it. Needless to say, the user desktop will be last on my list
of
> changes.
> By then, a Linux version of Vantage should be available. In
case it
> isn't,
> I guess I will have to hold on to my Terminal Server as well.
>
> Paul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@j...]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:45 PM
> To: 'vantage@y...'
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program -
Here's some
> nu mbers
>
>
> Paul,
>
> Are you using LINUX as a Vantage client ?
>
> Todd Anderson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@b...]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:43 PM
> To: 'vantage@y...'
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program -
Here's some
> nu
> mbers
>
>
> On a positive note; I have just received full support from mgmt
to go
> ahead
> with my "Linux and Open Office" effort (
http://www.openoffice.org/
> <http://www.openoffice.org/> which is
> basically StarOffice, but free).
>
> Most of my users use Word and Excel in a very minimal way, and
to buy
> them
> full MS Office Licenses would be a total waste. I do have
everyone
> licensed
> due to the fact that our purchasing contract with Dell
stipulates that
> included in the price of any workstation is a "free" OEM
version of
> Office.
>
> 2 of my 6 main servers run Red Hat, and the only one I am
willing to
> leave
> on a MS product would be the Vantage server. Currently, my
biggest
> non-compliance headache is the malicious user who brings
in "shareware"
> from
> home and installs it. The only way to combat this are time
consuming
> audits
> and uninstalls.
>
> Unfortunately, we can not enforce our software policy to the
fullest
> extent
> due to the scarcity of experienced Mechanical Engineers (which
are
> usually
> the types to "tweak" their systems). I think that those
incidents will
> greatly reduce when they are faced with a different OS and
desktop than
> their home PC's.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On a positive note; I have just received full support from mgmt to go ahead
with my "Linux and Open Office" effort (http://www.openoffice.org/ which is
basically StarOffice, but free).

Most of my users use Word and Excel in a very minimal way, and to buy them
full MS Office Licenses would be a total waste. I do have everyone licensed
due to the fact that our purchasing contract with Dell stipulates that
included in the price of any workstation is a "free" OEM version of Office.

2 of my 6 main servers run Red Hat, and the only one I am willing to leave
on a MS product would be the Vantage server. Currently, my biggest
non-compliance headache is the malicious user who brings in "shareware" from
home and installs it. The only way to combat this are time consuming audits
and uninstalls.

Unfortunately, we can not enforce our software policy to the fullest extent
due to the scarcity of experienced Mechanical Engineers (which are usually
the types to "tweak" their systems). I think that those incidents will
greatly reduce when they are faced with a different OS and desktop than
their home PC's.

Paul



-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:44 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
numbers


Ok, just did the math for us and thought I'd pass it along. Also, see below
for the response I received from MS when I presented them with "My" numbers
...

We purchased a block of MS-Office-2000-Premium licenses for $ 379.00 each.
List price was $ 622.00 for the "Retail Boxed Product". Needless to say, at
the time I was playing two different vendors against each other on pricing
and ended up with a good deal. ( Yes, these are legal licenses not "Fake"
ones. )

Today I received a quote for Software Assurance for this product. Mind you,
you CAN'T get SA for MS-Office-2000-Premium. MS doesn't offer it. So, my
quote was for MS-Office-Pro w/frontpage on one SKU and MS-Publisher on a 2nd
SKU.

Total price for SA works out to $ 339.23 for a TWO year maintenance
contract.

So let's see ... $ 339.23 / $ 379.00 = 89.51 % of PO price or 44.75 % PER
YEAR !!!

And we thought EPICOR's maintenance contracts were fun.

Of course, as you will read below, MS likes to play the game that the SA
maintenance percentages aren't that bad since as a percentage of LIST price
the numbers aren't so bad.

Then again, when was the last time you paid list price for something ? ( You
didn't did you? :-) )

For us, this all translates into ... If we plan on upgrading our Office-2000
software up to Office-XA within the next two years then the SA program would
allow us to "Purchase" Office-XA for approximately 10% less then we paid for
Office-2000.

Of course, for us, it will probably be 3 or 4 years before I have PC's that
are fast enough to run XA ...

Ok, I'll admit to finding this all somewhat amusing while at the same time
just a bit perplexing ...

On a final note. If you are new to process of negotiating pricing for
software packages, if there is a "maintenance" contract normally associated
with the software you are purchasing do two things. First, find out if the
percentages are based on price paid or "list" price. If the vendor tries to
sell you the "list" price concept ... get up and walk away from the table.
Dropping the percentage down to a percentage of price paid should be the
first thing they give you IN WRITING. ( I also like companies that do the
"List" price thing based on the "Current List" price which they can then
increase every year if they choose to. ) Secondly, LOCK in the percentage
number or put a clause in the PO that says that the dollar value you pay for
maintenance CANNOT increase more then 3-4 % per year. Unfortunately, none
of this applies when you are dealing with MS. They're in their own
universe.

Todd Anderson

From hear down is 100% Microsoft - enjoy -

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

The cost for SA on most products is approximately 25% of the full
license cost per year, which is consistent with the pricing in the
license model we had prior to the introduction of Software Assurance.

Microsoft prices for new licenses are often lower than the prices for
new licenses from competitive software vendor products. Therefore, the
yearly maintanance cost, when expressed as a percentage of the new
license cost is higher than that of competitive product pricing, when in
fact the TCO for the Microsoft solution is often lower than that of the
competitive solution. We can compare specific solutions side by side
and do the math if you would like.

Based on our conversation yesterday, I believe your company had taken
advantage of the promotion through which customers could get Office
Premium for the price of Office Professional. The full cost of Office
Premium was $622, and Office Professional was $466, which was I assume,
the price you paid. If you compare the SA Enrollment cost of $379 to
the Office Premium price of $622, the percentage is 60% for two years.
(Most of the upgrades are in the 50% ballpark, or 25% per year.) All
this is based on Microsoft pricing; the same math on reseller pricing
may show a different percentage.

Also, based on what I understand about the typical usage in your
organization, Office Premium is possibly more than what your users need.
You also have the option of enroll your Office Premium licenses into SA
for Office Professional (without Frontpage) for $263. The sku for this
items is: 269-05823, Office Pro Win32 English SA OLP NL, $263.


Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Paul,

Are you using LINUX as a Vantage client ?

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:43 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


On a positive note; I have just received full support from mgmt to go ahead
with my "Linux and Open Office" effort ( http://www.openoffice.org/
<http://www.openoffice.org/> which is
basically StarOffice, but free).

Most of my users use Word and Excel in a very minimal way, and to buy them
full MS Office Licenses would be a total waste. I do have everyone licensed
due to the fact that our purchasing contract with Dell stipulates that
included in the price of any workstation is a "free" OEM version of Office.

2 of my 6 main servers run Red Hat, and the only one I am willing to leave
on a MS product would be the Vantage server. Currently, my biggest
non-compliance headache is the malicious user who brings in "shareware" from
home and installs it. The only way to combat this are time consuming audits
and uninstalls.

Unfortunately, we can not enforce our software policy to the fullest extent
due to the scarcity of experienced Mechanical Engineers (which are usually
the types to "tweak" their systems). I think that those incidents will
greatly reduce when they are faced with a different OS and desktop than
their home PC's.

Paul



-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:44 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
numbers


Ok, just did the math for us and thought I'd pass it along. Also, see below
for the response I received from MS when I presented them with "My" numbers
...

We purchased a block of MS-Office-2000-Premium licenses for $ 379.00 each.
List price was $ 622.00 for the "Retail Boxed Product". Needless to say, at
the time I was playing two different vendors against each other on pricing
and ended up with a good deal. ( Yes, these are legal licenses not "Fake"
ones. )

Today I received a quote for Software Assurance for this product. Mind you,
you CAN'T get SA for MS-Office-2000-Premium. MS doesn't offer it. So, my
quote was for MS-Office-Pro w/frontpage on one SKU and MS-Publisher on a 2nd
SKU.

Total price for SA works out to $ 339.23 for a TWO year maintenance
contract.

So let's see ... $ 339.23 / $ 379.00 = 89.51 % of PO price or 44.75 % PER
YEAR !!!

And we thought EPICOR's maintenance contracts were fun.

Of course, as you will read below, MS likes to play the game that the SA
maintenance percentages aren't that bad since as a percentage of LIST price
the numbers aren't so bad.

Then again, when was the last time you paid list price for something ? ( You
didn't did you? :-) )

For us, this all translates into ... If we plan on upgrading our Office-2000
software up to Office-XA within the next two years then the SA program would
allow us to "Purchase" Office-XA for approximately 10% less then we paid for
Office-2000.

Of course, for us, it will probably be 3 or 4 years before I have PC's that
are fast enough to run XA ...

Ok, I'll admit to finding this all somewhat amusing while at the same time
just a bit perplexing ...

On a final note. If you are new to process of negotiating pricing for
software packages, if there is a "maintenance" contract normally associated
with the software you are purchasing do two things. First, find out if the
percentages are based on price paid or "list" price. If the vendor tries to
sell you the "list" price concept ... get up and walk away from the table.
Dropping the percentage down to a percentage of price paid should be the
first thing they give you IN WRITING. ( I also like companies that do the
"List" price thing based on the "Current List" price which they can then
increase every year if they choose to. ) Secondly, LOCK in the percentage
number or put a clause in the PO that says that the dollar value you pay for
maintenance CANNOT increase more then 3-4 % per year. Unfortunately, none
of this applies when you are dealing with MS. They're in their own
universe.

Todd Anderson

From hear down is 100% Microsoft - enjoy -

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

The cost for SA on most products is approximately 25% of the full
license cost per year, which is consistent with the pricing in the
license model we had prior to the introduction of Software Assurance.

Microsoft prices for new licenses are often lower than the prices for
new licenses from competitive software vendor products. Therefore, the
yearly maintanance cost, when expressed as a percentage of the new
license cost is higher than that of competitive product pricing, when in
fact the TCO for the Microsoft solution is often lower than that of the
competitive solution. We can compare specific solutions side by side
and do the math if you would like.

Based on our conversation yesterday, I believe your company had taken
advantage of the promotion through which customers could get Office
Premium for the price of Office Professional. The full cost of Office
Premium was $622, and Office Professional was $466, which was I assume,
the price you paid. If you compare the SA Enrollment cost of $379 to
the Office Premium price of $622, the percentage is 60% for two years.
(Most of the upgrades are in the 50% ballpark, or 25% per year.) All
this is based on Microsoft pricing; the same math on reseller pricing
may show a different percentage.

Also, based on what I understand about the typical usage in your
organization, Office Premium is possibly more than what your users need.
You also have the option of enroll your Office Premium licenses into SA
for Office Professional (without Frontpage) for $263. The sku for this
items is: 269-05823, Office Pro Win32 English SA OLP NL, $263.


Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>



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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"On a positive note; I have just received full support from mgmt to go ahead
with my "Linux and Open Office" effort"

I didn't know Vantage clients could run on a Linux machine.



Jeff Blair
System Administrator
C.N.C. Programmer


Advanced Manufacturing Technologies, Inc.
Visit our web page: www.advmantec.com




-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:43 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
numbers


On a positive note; I have just received full support from mgmt to go ahead
with my "Linux and Open Office" effort (http://www.openoffice.org/ which is
basically StarOffice, but free).

Most of my users use Word and Excel in a very minimal way, and to buy them
full MS Office Licenses would be a total waste. I do have everyone licensed
due to the fact that our purchasing contract with Dell stipulates that
included in the price of any workstation is a "free" OEM version of Office.

2 of my 6 main servers run Red Hat, and the only one I am willing to leave
on a MS product would be the Vantage server. Currently, my biggest
non-compliance headache is the malicious user who brings in "shareware" from
home and installs it. The only way to combat this are time consuming audits
and uninstalls.

Unfortunately, we can not enforce our software policy to the fullest extent
due to the scarcity of experienced Mechanical Engineers (which are usually
the types to "tweak" their systems). I think that those incidents will
greatly reduce when they are faced with a different OS and desktop than
their home PC's.

Paul



-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:44 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
numbers


Ok, just did the math for us and thought I'd pass it along. Also, see below
for the response I received from MS when I presented them with "My" numbers
...

We purchased a block of MS-Office-2000-Premium licenses for $ 379.00 each.
List price was $ 622.00 for the "Retail Boxed Product". Needless to say, at
the time I was playing two different vendors against each other on pricing
and ended up with a good deal. ( Yes, these are legal licenses not "Fake"
ones. )

Today I received a quote for Software Assurance for this product. Mind you,
you CAN'T get SA for MS-Office-2000-Premium. MS doesn't offer it. So, my
quote was for MS-Office-Pro w/frontpage on one SKU and MS-Publisher on a 2nd
SKU.

Total price for SA works out to $ 339.23 for a TWO year maintenance
contract.

So let's see ... $ 339.23 / $ 379.00 = 89.51 % of PO price or 44.75 % PER
YEAR !!!

And we thought EPICOR's maintenance contracts were fun.

Of course, as you will read below, MS likes to play the game that the SA
maintenance percentages aren't that bad since as a percentage of LIST price
the numbers aren't so bad.

Then again, when was the last time you paid list price for something ? ( You
didn't did you? :-) )

For us, this all translates into ... If we plan on upgrading our Office-2000
software up to Office-XA within the next two years then the SA program would
allow us to "Purchase" Office-XA for approximately 10% less then we paid for
Office-2000.

Of course, for us, it will probably be 3 or 4 years before I have PC's that
are fast enough to run XA ...

Ok, I'll admit to finding this all somewhat amusing while at the same time
just a bit perplexing ...

On a final note. If you are new to process of negotiating pricing for
software packages, if there is a "maintenance" contract normally associated
with the software you are purchasing do two things. First, find out if the
percentages are based on price paid or "list" price. If the vendor tries to
sell you the "list" price concept ... get up and walk away from the table.
Dropping the percentage down to a percentage of price paid should be the
first thing they give you IN WRITING. ( I also like companies that do the
"List" price thing based on the "Current List" price which they can then
increase every year if they choose to. ) Secondly, LOCK in the percentage
number or put a clause in the PO that says that the dollar value you pay for
maintenance CANNOT increase more then 3-4 % per year. Unfortunately, none
of this applies when you are dealing with MS. They're in their own
universe.

Todd Anderson

>From hear down is 100% Microsoft - enjoy -

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

The cost for SA on most products is approximately 25% of the full
license cost per year, which is consistent with the pricing in the
license model we had prior to the introduction of Software Assurance.

Microsoft prices for new licenses are often lower than the prices for
new licenses from competitive software vendor products. Therefore, the
yearly maintanance cost, when expressed as a percentage of the new
license cost is higher than that of competitive product pricing, when in
fact the TCO for the Microsoft solution is often lower than that of the
competitive solution. We can compare specific solutions side by side
and do the math if you would like.

Based on our conversation yesterday, I believe your company had taken
advantage of the promotion through which customers could get Office
Premium for the price of Office Professional. The full cost of Office
Premium was $622, and Office Professional was $466, which was I assume,
the price you paid. If you compare the SA Enrollment cost of $379 to
the Office Premium price of $622, the percentage is 60% for two years.
(Most of the upgrades are in the 50% ballpark, or 25% per year.) All
this is based on Microsoft pricing; the same math on reseller pricing
may show a different percentage.

Also, based on what I understand about the typical usage in your
organization, Office Premium is possibly more than what your users need.
You also have the option of enroll your Office Premium licenses into SA
for Office Professional (without Frontpage) for $263. The sku for this
items is: 269-05823, Office Pro Win32 English SA OLP NL, $263.


Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Todd,
No, I am not (yet). However, there are good Windows emulators lurking
around the corner that will allow you to do those things. I can't wait to
get my hands on a product called "Lindows" (www.lindows.com) and play with
it. Needless to say, the user desktop will be last on my list of changes.
By then, a Linux version of Vantage should be available. In case it isn't,
I guess I will have to hold on to my Terminal Server as well.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:45 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu mbers


Paul,

Are you using LINUX as a Vantage client ?

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:43 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


On a positive note; I have just received full support from mgmt to go ahead
with my "Linux and Open Office" effort ( http://www.openoffice.org/
<http://www.openoffice.org/> which is
basically StarOffice, but free).

Most of my users use Word and Excel in a very minimal way, and to buy them
full MS Office Licenses would be a total waste. I do have everyone licensed
due to the fact that our purchasing contract with Dell stipulates that
included in the price of any workstation is a "free" OEM version of Office.

2 of my 6 main servers run Red Hat, and the only one I am willing to leave
on a MS product would be the Vantage server. Currently, my biggest
non-compliance headache is the malicious user who brings in "shareware" from
home and installs it. The only way to combat this are time consuming audits
and uninstalls.

Unfortunately, we can not enforce our software policy to the fullest extent
due to the scarcity of experienced Mechanical Engineers (which are usually
the types to "tweak" their systems). I think that those incidents will
greatly reduce when they are faced with a different OS and desktop than
their home PC's.

Paul



-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:44 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
numbers


Ok, just did the math for us and thought I'd pass it along. Also, see below
for the response I received from MS when I presented them with "My" numbers
...

We purchased a block of MS-Office-2000-Premium licenses for $ 379.00 each.
List price was $ 622.00 for the "Retail Boxed Product". Needless to say, at
the time I was playing two different vendors against each other on pricing
and ended up with a good deal. ( Yes, these are legal licenses not "Fake"
ones. )

Today I received a quote for Software Assurance for this product. Mind you,
you CAN'T get SA for MS-Office-2000-Premium. MS doesn't offer it. So, my
quote was for MS-Office-Pro w/frontpage on one SKU and MS-Publisher on a 2nd
SKU.

Total price for SA works out to $ 339.23 for a TWO year maintenance
contract.

So let's see ... $ 339.23 / $ 379.00 = 89.51 % of PO price or 44.75 % PER
YEAR !!!

And we thought EPICOR's maintenance contracts were fun.

Of course, as you will read below, MS likes to play the game that the SA
maintenance percentages aren't that bad since as a percentage of LIST price
the numbers aren't so bad.

Then again, when was the last time you paid list price for something ? ( You
didn't did you? :-) )

For us, this all translates into ... If we plan on upgrading our Office-2000
software up to Office-XA within the next two years then the SA program would
allow us to "Purchase" Office-XA for approximately 10% less then we paid for
Office-2000.

Of course, for us, it will probably be 3 or 4 years before I have PC's that
are fast enough to run XA ...

Ok, I'll admit to finding this all somewhat amusing while at the same time
just a bit perplexing ...

On a final note. If you are new to process of negotiating pricing for
software packages, if there is a "maintenance" contract normally associated
with the software you are purchasing do two things. First, find out if the
percentages are based on price paid or "list" price. If the vendor tries to
sell you the "list" price concept ... get up and walk away from the table.
Dropping the percentage down to a percentage of price paid should be the
first thing they give you IN WRITING. ( I also like companies that do the
"List" price thing based on the "Current List" price which they can then
increase every year if they choose to. ) Secondly, LOCK in the percentage
number or put a clause in the PO that says that the dollar value you pay for
maintenance CANNOT increase more then 3-4 % per year. Unfortunately, none
of this applies when you are dealing with MS. They're in their own
universe.

Todd Anderson

From hear down is 100% Microsoft - enjoy -

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

The cost for SA on most products is approximately 25% of the full
license cost per year, which is consistent with the pricing in the
license model we had prior to the introduction of Software Assurance.

Microsoft prices for new licenses are often lower than the prices for
new licenses from competitive software vendor products. Therefore, the
yearly maintanance cost, when expressed as a percentage of the new
license cost is higher than that of competitive product pricing, when in
fact the TCO for the Microsoft solution is often lower than that of the
competitive solution. We can compare specific solutions side by side
and do the math if you would like.

Based on our conversation yesterday, I believe your company had taken
advantage of the promotion through which customers could get Office
Premium for the price of Office Professional. The full cost of Office
Premium was $622, and Office Professional was $466, which was I assume,
the price you paid. If you compare the SA Enrollment cost of $379 to
the Office Premium price of $622, the percentage is 60% for two years.
(Most of the upgrades are in the 50% ballpark, or 25% per year.) All
this is based on Microsoft pricing; the same math on reseller pricing
may show a different percentage.

Also, based on what I understand about the typical usage in your
organization, Office Premium is possibly more than what your users need.
You also have the option of enroll your Office Premium licenses into SA
for Office Professional (without Frontpage) for $263. The sku for this
items is: 269-05823, Office Pro Win32 English SA OLP NL, $263.


Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>



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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
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<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
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<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Paul, Are you talking about running the Terminal Server client on a Linux
desktop? We're keeping an eye on Lindows as well, along with "Crossover
Office" (Thanx to Adam Ellis!) from the folks who brought us WINE:
www.codeweavers.com --anything to escape the clutches of der Fuhrer Gates.
Thanx,
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:14 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


Todd,
No, I am not (yet). However, there are good Windows emulators lurking
around the corner that will allow you to do those things. I can't wait to
get my hands on a product called "Lindows" (www.lindows.com) and play with
it. Needless to say, the user desktop will be last on my list of changes.
By then, a Linux version of Vantage should be available. In case it
isn't,
I guess I will have to hold on to my Terminal Server as well.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:45 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu mbers


Paul,

Are you using LINUX as a Vantage client ?

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:43 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


On a positive note; I have just received full support from mgmt to go
ahead
with my "Linux and Open Office" effort ( http://www.openoffice.org/
<http://www.openoffice.org/> which is
basically StarOffice, but free).

Most of my users use Word and Excel in a very minimal way, and to buy them
full MS Office Licenses would be a total waste. I do have everyone
licensed
due to the fact that our purchasing contract with Dell stipulates that
included in the price of any workstation is a "free" OEM version of
Office.

2 of my 6 main servers run Red Hat, and the only one I am willing to leave
on a MS product would be the Vantage server. Currently, my biggest
non-compliance headache is the malicious user who brings in "shareware"
from
home and installs it. The only way to combat this are time consuming
audits
and uninstalls.

Unfortunately, we can not enforce our software policy to the fullest
extent
due to the scarcity of experienced Mechanical Engineers (which are usually
the types to "tweak" their systems). I think that those incidents will
greatly reduce when they are faced with a different OS and desktop than
their home PC's.

Paul



-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:44 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
numbers


Ok, just did the math for us and thought I'd pass it along. Also, see
below
for the response I received from MS when I presented them with "My"
numbers
...

We purchased a block of MS-Office-2000-Premium licenses for $ 379.00 each.
List price was $ 622.00 for the "Retail Boxed Product". Needless to say,
at
the time I was playing two different vendors against each other on pricing
and ended up with a good deal. ( Yes, these are legal licenses not "Fake"
ones. )

Today I received a quote for Software Assurance for this product. Mind
you,
you CAN'T get SA for MS-Office-2000-Premium. MS doesn't offer it. So, my
quote was for MS-Office-Pro w/frontpage on one SKU and MS-Publisher on a
2nd
SKU.

Total price for SA works out to $ 339.23 for a TWO year maintenance
contract.

So let's see ... $ 339.23 / $ 379.00 = 89.51 % of PO price or 44.75 % PER
YEAR !!!

And we thought EPICOR's maintenance contracts were fun.

Of course, as you will read below, MS likes to play the game that the SA
maintenance percentages aren't that bad since as a percentage of LIST
price
the numbers aren't so bad.

Then again, when was the last time you paid list price for something ?
You
didn't did you? :-) )

For us, this all translates into ... If we plan on upgrading our
Office-2000
software up to Office-XA within the next two years then the SA program
would
allow us to "Purchase" Office-XA for approximately 10% less then we paid
for
Office-2000.

Of course, for us, it will probably be 3 or 4 years before I have PC's
that
are fast enough to run XA ...

Ok, I'll admit to finding this all somewhat amusing while at the same time
just a bit perplexing ...

On a final note. If you are new to process of negotiating pricing for
software packages, if there is a "maintenance" contract normally
associated
with the software you are purchasing do two things. First, find out if
the
percentages are based on price paid or "list" price. If the vendor tries
to
sell you the "list" price concept ... get up and walk away from the table.
Dropping the percentage down to a percentage of price paid should be the
first thing they give you IN WRITING. ( I also like companies that do the
"List" price thing based on the "Current List" price which they can then
increase every year if they choose to. ) Secondly, LOCK in the percentage
number or put a clause in the PO that says that the dollar value you pay
for
maintenance CANNOT increase more then 3-4 % per year. Unfortunately, none
of this applies when you are dealing with MS. They're in their own
universe.

Todd Anderson

>From hear down is 100% Microsoft - enjoy -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-

The cost for SA on most products is approximately 25% of the full
license cost per year, which is consistent with the pricing in the
license model we had prior to the introduction of Software Assurance.

Microsoft prices for new licenses are often lower than the prices for
new licenses from competitive software vendor products. Therefore, the
yearly maintenance cost, when expressed as a percentage of the new
license cost is higher than that of competitive product pricing, when in
fact the TCO for the Microsoft solution is often lower than that of the
competitive solution. We can compare specific solutions side by side
and do the math if you would like.

Based on our conversation yesterday, I believe your company had taken
advantage of the promotion through which customers could get Office
Premium for the price of Office Professional. The full cost of Office
Premium was $622, and Office Professional was $466, which was I assume,
the price you paid. If you compare the SA Enrollment cost of $379 to
the Office Premium price of $622, the percentage is 60% for two years.
(Most of the upgrades are in the 50% ballpark, or 25% per year.) All
this is based on Microsoft pricing; the same math on reseller pricing
may show a different percentage.

Also, based on what I understand about the typical usage in your
organization, Office Premium is possibly more than what your users need.
You also have the option of enroll your Office Premium licenses into SA
for Office Professional (without Frontpage) for $263. The sku for this
items is: 269-05823, Office Pro Win32 English SA OLP NL, $263.


Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT


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<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=213858.1981271.3463330.1261774/D=egroupmai
l/S=1705007183:HM/A=763352/rand=546082825>

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Exactly, Alan. And yes, WINE is another one I am going to test. This will
be an interesting year...

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Williams [mailto:awilliams@...]
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 2:48 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


Paul, Are you talking about running the Terminal Server client on a Linux
desktop? We're keeping an eye on Lindows as well, along with "Crossover
Office" (Thanx to Adam Ellis!) from the folks who brought us WINE:
www.codeweavers.com --anything to escape the clutches of der Fuhrer Gates.
Thanx,
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:14 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


Todd,
No, I am not (yet). However, there are good Windows emulators lurking
around the corner that will allow you to do those things. I can't wait to
get my hands on a product called "Lindows" (www.lindows.com) and play with
it. Needless to say, the user desktop will be last on my list of changes.
By then, a Linux version of Vantage should be available. In case it
isn't,
I guess I will have to hold on to my Terminal Server as well.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:45 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu mbers


Paul,

Are you using LINUX as a Vantage client ?

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:43 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


On a positive note; I have just received full support from mgmt to go
ahead
with my "Linux and Open Office" effort ( http://www.openoffice.org/
<http://www.openoffice.org/> which is
basically StarOffice, but free).

Most of my users use Word and Excel in a very minimal way, and to buy them
full MS Office Licenses would be a total waste. I do have everyone
licensed
due to the fact that our purchasing contract with Dell stipulates that
included in the price of any workstation is a "free" OEM version of
Office.

2 of my 6 main servers run Red Hat, and the only one I am willing to leave
on a MS product would be the Vantage server. Currently, my biggest
non-compliance headache is the malicious user who brings in "shareware"
from
home and installs it. The only way to combat this are time consuming
audits
and uninstalls.

Unfortunately, we can not enforce our software policy to the fullest
extent
due to the scarcity of experienced Mechanical Engineers (which are usually
the types to "tweak" their systems). I think that those incidents will
greatly reduce when they are faced with a different OS and desktop than
their home PC's.

Paul



-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:44 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
numbers


Ok, just did the math for us and thought I'd pass it along. Also, see
below
for the response I received from MS when I presented them with "My"
numbers
...

We purchased a block of MS-Office-2000-Premium licenses for $ 379.00 each.
List price was $ 622.00 for the "Retail Boxed Product". Needless to say,
at
the time I was playing two different vendors against each other on pricing
and ended up with a good deal. ( Yes, these are legal licenses not "Fake"
ones. )

Today I received a quote for Software Assurance for this product. Mind
you,
you CAN'T get SA for MS-Office-2000-Premium. MS doesn't offer it. So, my
quote was for MS-Office-Pro w/frontpage on one SKU and MS-Publisher on a
2nd
SKU.

Total price for SA works out to $ 339.23 for a TWO year maintenance
contract.

So let's see ... $ 339.23 / $ 379.00 = 89.51 % of PO price or 44.75 % PER
YEAR !!!

And we thought EPICOR's maintenance contracts were fun.

Of course, as you will read below, MS likes to play the game that the SA
maintenance percentages aren't that bad since as a percentage of LIST
price
the numbers aren't so bad.

Then again, when was the last time you paid list price for something ?
You
didn't did you? :-) )

For us, this all translates into ... If we plan on upgrading our
Office-2000
software up to Office-XA within the next two years then the SA program
would
allow us to "Purchase" Office-XA for approximately 10% less then we paid
for
Office-2000.

Of course, for us, it will probably be 3 or 4 years before I have PC's
that
are fast enough to run XA ...

Ok, I'll admit to finding this all somewhat amusing while at the same time
just a bit perplexing ...

On a final note. If you are new to process of negotiating pricing for
software packages, if there is a "maintenance" contract normally
associated
with the software you are purchasing do two things. First, find out if
the
percentages are based on price paid or "list" price. If the vendor tries
to
sell you the "list" price concept ... get up and walk away from the table.
Dropping the percentage down to a percentage of price paid should be the
first thing they give you IN WRITING. ( I also like companies that do the
"List" price thing based on the "Current List" price which they can then
increase every year if they choose to. ) Secondly, LOCK in the percentage
number or put a clause in the PO that says that the dollar value you pay
for
maintenance CANNOT increase more then 3-4 % per year. Unfortunately, none
of this applies when you are dealing with MS. They're in their own
universe.

Todd Anderson

>From hear down is 100% Microsoft - enjoy -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-

The cost for SA on most products is approximately 25% of the full
license cost per year, which is consistent with the pricing in the
license model we had prior to the introduction of Software Assurance.

Microsoft prices for new licenses are often lower than the prices for
new licenses from competitive software vendor products. Therefore, the
yearly maintenance cost, when expressed as a percentage of the new
license cost is higher than that of competitive product pricing, when in
fact the TCO for the Microsoft solution is often lower than that of the
competitive solution. We can compare specific solutions side by side
and do the math if you would like.

Based on our conversation yesterday, I believe your company had taken
advantage of the promotion through which customers could get Office
Premium for the price of Office Professional. The full cost of Office
Premium was $622, and Office Professional was $466, which was I assume,
the price you paid. If you compare the SA Enrollment cost of $379 to
the Office Premium price of $622, the percentage is 60% for two years.
(Most of the upgrades are in the 50% ballpark, or 25% per year.) All
this is based on Microsoft pricing; the same math on reseller pricing
may show a different percentage.

Also, based on what I understand about the typical usage in your
organization, Office Premium is possibly more than what your users need.
You also have the option of enroll your Office Premium licenses into SA
for Office Professional (without Frontpage) for $263. The sku for this
items is: 269-05823, Office Pro Win32 English SA OLP NL, $263.


Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>



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ADVERTISEMENT


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<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=213858.1981271.3463330.1261774/D=egroupmai
l/S=1705007183:HM/A=763352/rand=546082825>

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services got:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
"Interesting" won't even begin to describe it, I think. :-) Have you
succeeded in running TS on Linux yet? If so, would LUVS to hear details.
Thanx,
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 7:03 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


Exactly, Alan. And yes, WINE is another one I am going to test. This
will
be an interesting year...

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Williams [mailto:awilliams@...]
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 2:48 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


Paul, Are you talking about running the Terminal Server client on a Linux
desktop? We're keeping an eye on Lindows as well, along with "Crossover
Office" (Thanx to Adam Ellis!) from the folks who brought us WINE:
www.codeweavers.com --anything to escape the clutches of der Fuhrer Gates.
Thanx,
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:14 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


Todd,
No, I am not (yet). However, there are good Windows emulators lurking
around the corner that will allow you to do those things. I can't wait
to
get my hands on a product called "Lindows" (www.lindows.com) and play
with
it. Needless to say, the user desktop will be last on my list of
changes.
By then, a Linux version of Vantage should be available. In case it
isn't,
I guess I will have to hold on to my Terminal Server as well.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:45 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu mbers


Paul,

Are you using LINUX as a Vantage client ?

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:43 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu
mbers


On a positive note; I have just received full support from mgmt to go
ahead
with my "Linux and Open Office" effort ( http://www.openoffice.org/
<http://www.openoffice.org/> which is
basically StarOffice, but free).

Most of my users use Word and Excel in a very minimal way, and to buy
them
full MS Office Licenses would be a total waste. I do have everyone
licensed
due to the fact that our purchasing contract with Dell stipulates that
included in the price of any workstation is a "free" OEM version of
Office.

2 of my 6 main servers run Red Hat, and the only one I am willing to
leave
on a MS product would be the Vantage server. Currently, my biggest
non-compliance headache is the malicious user who brings in "shareware"
from
home and installs it. The only way to combat this are time consuming
audits
and uninstalls.

Unfortunately, we can not enforce our software policy to the fullest
extent
due to the scarcity of experienced Mechanical Engineers (which are
usually
the types to "tweak" their systems). I think that those incidents will
greatly reduce when they are faced with a different OS and desktop than
their home PC's.

Paul





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A while ago I downloaded the RPM (I use Red Hat) for the ICA client from the
Citrix web site, I haven't installed it yet, but as soon as my personal
laptop is up and running on LILO I'll give it a try. I'll post results of
my trials on the group since there seems to be some interest.

On a related note, I installed the ICA client for my Jornada 540 PPC. I get
the Jornada on line by using Socket's digital phone card with my CDMA
Motorola StarTac. Talk about stares when I work on Vantage using that
combo... The connection and speeds are pretty solid. The screen is a bit
small, but when you rotate it lengthwise it is bearable. Highly recommended
in case you are on that beach sipping a nice frosty beverage and the office
calls because a user needs access to a menu.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Williams [mailto:awilliams@...]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 2:04 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu mbers


"Interesting" won't even begin to describe it, I think. :-) Have you
succeeded in running TS on Linux yet? If so, would LUVS to hear details.
Thanx,
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 7:03 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


Exactly, Alan. And yes, WINE is another one I am going to test. This
will
be an interesting year...

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Williams [mailto:awilliams@...]
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 2:48 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


Paul, Are you talking about running the Terminal Server client on a Linux
desktop? We're keeping an eye on Lindows as well, along with "Crossover
Office" (Thanx to Adam Ellis!) from the folks who brought us WINE:
www.codeweavers.com --anything to escape the clutches of der Fuhrer Gates.
Thanx,
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:14 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


Todd,
No, I am not (yet). However, there are good Windows emulators lurking
around the corner that will allow you to do those things. I can't wait
to
get my hands on a product called "Lindows" (www.lindows.com) and play
with
it. Needless to say, the user desktop will be last on my list of
changes.
By then, a Linux version of Vantage should be available. In case it
isn't,
I guess I will have to hold on to my Terminal Server as well.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:45 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu mbers


Paul,

Are you using LINUX as a Vantage client ?

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:43 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu
mbers


On a positive note; I have just received full support from mgmt to go
ahead
with my "Linux and Open Office" effort ( http://www.openoffice.org/
<http://www.openoffice.org/> which is
basically StarOffice, but free).

Most of my users use Word and Excel in a very minimal way, and to buy
them
full MS Office Licenses would be a total waste. I do have everyone
licensed
due to the fact that our purchasing contract with Dell stipulates that
included in the price of any workstation is a "free" OEM version of
Office.

2 of my 6 main servers run Red Hat, and the only one I am willing to
leave
on a MS product would be the Vantage server. Currently, my biggest
non-compliance headache is the malicious user who brings in "shareware"
from
home and installs it. The only way to combat this are time consuming
audits
and uninstalls.

Unfortunately, we can not enforce our software policy to the fullest
extent
due to the scarcity of experienced Mechanical Engineers (which are
usually
the types to "tweak" their systems). I think that those incidents will
greatly reduce when they are faced with a different OS and desktop than
their home PC's.

Paul





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Ouch, yeck. We don't use Citrix, only ten TS users, and it seems stable, so
we never paid the $$ for it. Are we SOL? It sounds like you're planning
it as a dual-boot, not a client to be run from KDE or Gnome?

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:36 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


A while ago I downloaded the RPM (I use Red Hat) for the ICA client from
the
Citrix web site, I haven't installed it yet, but as soon as my personal
laptop is up and running on LILO I'll give it a try. I'll post results of
my trials on the group since there seems to be some interest.

On a related note, I installed the ICA client for my Jornada 540 PPC. I
get
the Jornada on line by using Socket's digital phone card with my CDMA
Motorola StarTac. Talk about stares when I work on Vantage using that
combo... The connection and speeds are pretty solid. The screen is a bit
small, but when you rotate it lengthwise it is bearable. Highly
recommended
in case you are on that beach sipping a nice frosty beverage and the
office
calls because a user needs access to a menu.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Williams [mailto:awilliams@...]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 2:04 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu mbers


"Interesting" won't even begin to describe it, I think. :-) Have you
succeeded in running TS on Linux yet? If so, would LUVS to hear
details.
Thanx,
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 7:03 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu
mbers


Exactly, Alan. And yes, WINE is another one I am going to test. This
will
be an interesting year...

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Williams [mailto:awilliams@...]
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 2:48 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some nu
mbers


Paul, Are you talking about running the Terminal Server client on a
Linux
desktop? We're keeping an eye on Lindows as well, along with "Crossover
Office" (Thanx to Adam Ellis!) from the folks who brought us WINE:
www.codeweavers.com --anything to escape the clutches of der Fuhrer
Gates.
Thanx,
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:14 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu
mbers


Todd,
No, I am not (yet). However, there are good Windows emulators lurking
around the corner that will allow you to do those things. I can't
wait
to
get my hands on a product called "Lindows" (www.lindows.com) and play
with
it. Needless to say, the user desktop will be last on my list of
changes.
By then, a Linux version of Vantage should be available. In case it
isn't,
I guess I will have to hold on to my Terminal Server as well.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:45 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu mbers


Paul,

Are you using LINUX as a Vantage client ?

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Siebers [mailto:paul.siebers@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:43 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu
mbers


On a positive note; I have just received full support from mgmt to go
ahead
with my "Linux and Open Office" effort ( http://www.openoffice.org/
<http://www.openoffice.org/> which is
basically StarOffice, but free).

Most of my users use Word and Excel in a very minimal way, and to buy
them
full MS Office Licenses would be a total waste. I do have everyone
licensed
due to the fact that our purchasing contract with Dell stipulates that
included in the price of any workstation is a "free" OEM version of
Office.

2 of my 6 main servers run Red Hat, and the only one I am willing to
leave
on a MS product would be the Vantage server. Currently, my biggest
non-compliance headache is the malicious user who brings in
"shareware"
from
home and installs it. The only way to combat this are time consuming
audits
and uninstalls.

Unfortunately, we can not enforce our software policy to the fullest
extent
due to the scarcity of experienced Mechanical Engineers (which are
usually
the types to "tweak" their systems). I think that those incidents
will
greatly reduce when they are faced with a different OS and desktop
than
their home PC's.

Paul






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alan,

We've run Vantage on Mandrake using the ICA client for Linux with
no problems.

The real issue for us is the lack of a fully-functional Office
equivalent. While many are satisfied with the basic features, we
do make extensive use of automation in Access and Excel. So we
either need full compatibility at the VBA level or equal function
with a company-wide rollout.


have fun,
john




-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Williams [mailto:awilliams@...]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 11:04 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu mbers







*
Alan,
I am not too sure about running in ICA client to a strictly RDP box. I do
know that WTS does have RDP clients for Linux available on the Microsoft
site. So you are definitely not SOL. You might not be able to see more
than 256 colors using RDP, but who cares.
On the dual boot question: my laptop will run Win2K Professional and Red Hat
7.2

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: John Sage [mailto:jsage@...]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 4:11 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu mbers


Alan,

We've run Vantage on Mandrake using the ICA client for Linux with
no problems.

The real issue for us is the lack of a fully-functional Office
equivalent. While many are satisfied with the basic features, we
do make extensive use of automation in Access and Excel. So we
either need full compatibility at the VBA level or equal function
with a company-wide rollout.


have fun,
john




-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Williams [mailto:awilliams@...]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 11:04 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: MS Software Assurance Program - Here's some
nu mbers







*


































Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/