Subcontracting POS

It's a VB technique. This is an example from Job Entry:

Sub InitializeCustomCode()

'// ** Wizard Insert Location - Do not delete
'Begin/End Wizard Added Variable Intialization' lines **
'// Begin Wizard Added Variable Intialization

'// End Wizard Added Variable Intialization
'// Begin Custom Method Calls

'// End Custom Method Calls

SetExtendedProps() 'add this subroutine call in Init custom code

End Sub

...then create your SetExtendedProps() sub:

Private Sub SetExtendedProps()

Dim edvJO As EpiDataView = CType(oTrans.EpiDataViews("JobOper"), EpiDataView)

If edvJO.dataView.Table.Columns.Contains("OpComplete") Then

edvJO.dataView.Table.Columns("OpComplete").ExtendedProperties("ReadOnly") = False

End If

End Sub

In this case, if the JobOper table exists (Job Entry is open & functioning), the OpComplete field (normally non-editable in Job Entry - not even displayed in fact if I recall) is now set to Read-Only false so our schedulers can force an OP close (perhaps short qty as a result of labor entry foul ups).

You can apply the technique to just about any field in any app. ***Will not over-ride field level user security you may have set up however!

Very handy technique (and can be applied to more field 'properties' than just read-only.)

Hope that helps!

Rob

--- On Wed, 2/18/09, Andrew Best <abest@...> wrote:

From: Andrew Best <abest@...>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 3:29 PM






Rob - What does this mean "you tried setting extended properties on the
'days out' job field so that read only - false" I am not sure what you
are speaking of.

Regards,

Andrew Best

Kice Industries, Inc.

P(316)744-7151

F(316)295-2412

From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf
Of Robert Brown
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 1:49 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

Andrew: Have you tried setting extended properties on the 'days out' job
field so that read only - false?

That would allow you to edit individual job details to match your
subcontract desires.

Note: Once you place the linked subcontract PO, the PO due date SHOULD
become the end date for the subcontract OP.

If it's not, something else might be amiss in you config or data.

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/16/09, Andrew Best <abest@...
<mailto:abest% 40kice.com> > wrote:
From: Andrew Best <abest@... <mailto:abest% 40kice.com> >
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com <mailto:vantage% 40yahoogroups. com>
Date: Monday, February 16, 2009, 12:59 PM

What would be nice is that if Vantage allowed the user to manipulate the

Queue time per job. Syteline made scheduling extremely flexible by

allowing the queue and move to be changed on each job. It made

scheduling around the bottlenecks much easier.

It would also help on OP's when you rush an order from a supplier.

Normally Chrome takes 2 weeks, but we can have it done in a week or even

less if needed.

Regards,

Andrew Best

Kice Industries, Inc.

P

F

From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@ yahoogroups .com] On
Behalf

Of Robert Brown

Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:39 PM

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

Neat trick Andrew.

Our legacy system (Profitkey) essentially handled it like that.

Difference being I could actually specify the 'material' detail as a

"S"ervice.

So far we're living with the paradigm shift (after realizing too late

that there is no Time Phase like netting view of subcontract services

that planners & buyers are so used to using - so our IT wizards

developed a subcontract PO web tool).

If the winds ever blow towards making a change I'll remember your

method.

Thanks.

Rob

--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Andrew Best <abest@...
<mailto:abest% 40kice.com>

<mailto:abest% 40kice.com> > wrote:

From: Andrew Best <abest@... <mailto:abest% 40kice.com>
<mailto:abest% 40kice.com> >

Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com <mailto:vantage% 40yahoogroups. com>

Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 11:00 AM

I did not like the Subcontract PO process with Vantage. I found it much

easier to just purchase our subcontract OP's on Purchase direct PO's and

use the resource Queue time to allow for the OP lead time. But I think

it depends on the nature of your business and your subcontract OP as to

whether the canned Vantage method will work best.

Regards,

Andrew Best

Kice Industries, Inc.

P

F

From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@ yahoogroups .com] On

Behalf

Of Robert Brown

Sent: Monday, February 09, :42 PM

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

Far be it from me to argue with the Support Gods at Epicor, but I think

they've been sipping too much of their Sales Group's psychodelic

Kool-Aid.

If you look in depth at the multi-table data-structures of Methods (and

very similar structures when those methods are generated and scheduled

as Job Details), you'll find subcontract OPs (at method level and as a

job detail UNTIL you actual create and link a PO to the subcontract OP)

are totally schedule offset by the 'days out' value in the method.

Once you create a linked subcontract PO to a scheduled subcontract OP,

the 'days out' value that acted as a scheduling offset previously (for

subcontract OP start/end dates) is replaced entirely by the PO Entry

date (start) and linked PO/line/release due date.

These PO linked subcontract OPs effectively become locked to the

scheduler (just as if you were configured to not reschedule in-process

OPs)... The scheduler just does its best to maintain your defined OP to

OP sequence directions (finish-start for serial OPs & start-start or

finish to finish for parallel defined OPs) within the bounds of your

defining/controllin g subcontract PO dates.

Vantage has bug maintaining these defined OP sequences (SCR just created

as a result of 5 months of working through supports pat 'working as

designed' answers and us refusing to go away.

The fix for that isn't going to be out until 408 (which I expect in

reality means 409).

All that said, the global & MRP are not a single process and don't work

together in the way suggested: That scheduling would LIKE a subcontract

OP with a linked PO to be moved - but it can't by the very nature of the

data structures involved - So MRP cannot possibly 'see' that (post

schedule) the perfectly aligned subcontract PO to subcontract OP

requires some PO change message.

Vantage's MRP is already about as weak as they come - so the notion that

they are going to get it to do as suggested with these 2 SCR's you

mention is unlikely. To do so will require a not yet existing

scheduling/MRP bridging processer (and supporting data structures) to

provide the behavior you are looking for.

Frankly, I hope they don't try it as it will almost assuredly create new

wonderful bugs within the Global and MRP.

I (for one) would be happy if they just eliminate the existing bugs so

we could count on reliable, repetitive behavior (ideal or not).

Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE such a feature (only I'd like to be able

to control WHEN it is to be invoke). We have thousands of short duration

subcontract OPs for quick plating/anodizing/ etc., processes which, once

PO linked, in our business I'd like to STAY locked and not bother people

with non-value added messages. We also have VERY long lead time

subcontract OPs where the behavior you describe would be useful.

I'm not trusting enough (based on Epicor's track record), that they

wouldn't screw one desireable behavior up in 'fixing' (really enhancing)

behavior for the other types.

Curious to know which release they plan to implement these SCRs when you

find out.

We'll definitely have to do some heavy piloting to test this behavior

again when that release is available before risk our business going live

on it.

(If they do manage to do it, I hope it resolves your process issues.)

Thanks for the tip Jessi... It's nice to get a heads up on potential

future changes that might have such a big impact on our business.

Any additonal info you learned would be greatly appreciated if you would

pass it on.

Thanks

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com

<mailto:jessi. utecht%40yahoo. com> > wrote:

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com

<mailto:jessi. utecht%40yahoo. com> >

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com <mailto:vantage% 40yahoogroups. com>

Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 1:25 PM

Just got confirmation from Epicor that this is a bug and that there are

2 different SCR #'s for this issue.

Just waiting to get the information from Epicor what the SCR#'s are and

when they will be released.

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Sent: Monday, February 9, :08:27 AM

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

Rob,

Thanks for the rather intersting information.

Appreciate your help

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Robert Brown <robertb_versa@ yahoo.com>

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Sent: Monday, February 9, :56:52 AM

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

That's as designed (and how nearly every system I've ever seen works

with subcontract/ outside service PO/OPs).

Rather than delete your linked POs, why isn't your job Scheduler/Planner

just communicating to the Buyer the need to change the PO schedule (and

doing so if possible after checking with vendor - or NOT doing so and

leaving the job schedule intact if unable to change)?

(Some things are better to do via talk/email versu relying upon some

self delusional capacity model driven system job schedule messages.)

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>

Subject: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 10:28 AM

We have found that our Subcontracing PO's are driving the dates when our

jobs are being rescheduled instead of the reschedule of the job creating

a rescheduling message to more out the P.O. datein or out. The only

way around it is to go to the subcontracting P.O., delete the items off

of it, reschedule the job, then reinsert the items back into the P.O.

Has anyone else ever experienced this or know if this is fixed in a

future release?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We have found that our Subcontracing PO's are driving the dates when our jobs are being rescheduled instead of the reschedule of the job creating a rescheduling message to more out the P.O. datein or out. The only way around it is to go to the subcontracting P.O., delete the items off of it, reschedule the job, then reinsert the items back into the P.O.
Â
Has anyone else ever experienced this or know if this is fixed in a future release?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's as designed (and how nearly every system I've ever seen works with subcontract/outside service PO/OPs).

Rather than delete your linked POs, why isn't your job Scheduler/Planner just communicating to the Buyer the need to change the PO schedule (and doing so if possible after checking with vendor - or NOT doing so and leaving the job schedule intact if unable to change)?

(Some things are better to do via talk/email versu relying upon some self delusional capacity model driven system job schedule messages.)

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@...> wrote:

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@...>
Subject: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 10:28 AM






We have found that our Subcontracing PO's are driving the dates when our jobs are being rescheduled instead of the reschedule of the job creating a rescheduling message to more out the P.O. datein or out. The only way around it is to go to the subcontracting P.O., delete the items off of it, reschedule the job, then reinsert the items back into the P.O.
Â
Has anyone else ever experienced this or know if this is fixed in a future release?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rob,
Thanks for the rather intersting information.
Appreciate your help




________________________________
From: Robert Brown <robertb_versa@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 10:56:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



That's as designed (and how nearly every system I've ever seen works with subcontract/ outside service PO/OPs).

Rather than delete your linked POs, why isn't your job Scheduler/Planner just communicating to the Buyer the need to change the PO schedule (and doing so if possible after checking with vendor - or NOT doing so and leaving the job schedule intact if unable to change)?

(Some things are better to do via talk/email versu relying upon some self delusional capacity model driven system job schedule messages.)

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 10:28 AM

We have found that our Subcontracing PO's are driving the dates when our jobs are being rescheduled instead of the reschedule of the job creating a rescheduling message to more out the P.O. datein or out. The only way around it is to go to the subcontracting P.O., delete the items off of it, reschedule the job, then reinsert the items back into the P.O.
Â
Has anyone else ever experienced this or know if this is fixed in a future release?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Just got confirmation from Epicor that this is a bug and that there are 2 different SCR #'s for this issue.

Just waiting to get the information from Epicor what the SCR#'s are and when they will be released.

Â



________________________________
From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 11:08:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS


Rob,
Thanks for the rather intersting information.
Appreciate your help

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Robert Brown <robertb_versa@ yahoo.com>
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 10:56:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

That's as designed (and how nearly every system I've ever seen works with subcontract/ outside service PO/OPs).

Rather than delete your linked POs, why isn't your job Scheduler/Planner just communicating to the Buyer the need to change the PO schedule (and doing so if possible after checking with vendor - or NOT doing so and leaving the job schedule intact if unable to change)?

(Some things are better to do via talk/email versu relying upon some self delusional capacity model driven system job schedule messages.)

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 10:28 AM

We have found that our Subcontracing PO's are driving the dates when our jobs are being rescheduled instead of the reschedule of the job creating a rescheduling message to more out the P.O. datein or out. The only way around it is to go to the subcontracting P.O., delete the items off of it, reschedule the job, then reinsert the items back into the P.O.
Â
Has anyone else ever experienced this or know if this is fixed in a future release?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Far be it from me to argue with the Support Gods at Epicor, but I think they've been sipping too much of their Sales Group's psychodelic Kool-Aid.

If you look in depth at the multi-table data-structures of Methods (and very similar structures when those methods are generated and scheduled as Job Details), you'll find subcontract OPs (at method level and as a job detail UNTIL you actual create and link a PO to the subcontract OP) are totally schedule offset by the 'days out' value in the method.

Once you create a linked subcontract PO to a scheduled subcontract OP, the 'days out' value that acted as a scheduling offset previously (for subcontract OP start/end dates) is replaced entirely by the PO Entry date (start) and linked PO/line/release due date.

These PO linked subcontract OPs effectively become locked to the scheduler (just as if you were configured to not reschedule in-process OPs)... The scheduler just does its best to maintain your defined OP to OP sequence directions (finish-start for serial OPs & start-start or finish to finish for parallel defined OPs) within the bounds of your defining/controlling subcontract PO dates.

Vantage has bug maintaining these defined OP sequences (SCR just created as a result of 5 months of working through supports pat 'working as designed' answers and us refusing to go away.

The fix for that isn't going to be out until 408 (which I expect in reality means 409).

All that said, the global & MRP are not a single process and don't work together in the way suggested: That scheduling would LIKE a subcontract OP with a linked PO to be moved - but it can't by the very nature of the data structures involved - So MRP cannot possibly 'see' that (post schedule) the perfectly aligned subcontract PO to subcontract OP requires some PO change message.

Vantage's MRP is already about as weak as they come - so the notion that they are going to get it to do as suggested with these 2 SCR's you mention is unlikely. To do so will require a not yet existing scheduling/MRP bridging processer (and supporting data structures) to provide the behavior you are looking for.

Frankly, I hope they don't try it as it will almost assuredly create new wonderful bugs within the Global and MRP.

I (for one) would be happy if they just eliminate the existing bugs so we could count on reliable, repetitive behavior (ideal or not).

Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE such a feature (only I'd like to be able to control WHEN it is to be invoke). We have thousands of short duration subcontract OPs for quick plating/anodizing/etc., processes which, once PO linked, in our business I'd like to STAY locked and not bother people with non-value added messages. We also have VERY long lead time subcontract OPs where the behavior you describe would be useful.

I'm not trusting enough (based on Epicor's track record), that they wouldn't screw one desireable behavior up in 'fixing' (really enhancing) behavior for the other types.

Curious to know which release they plan to implement these SCRs when you find out.

We'll definitely have to do some heavy piloting to test this behavior again when that release is available before risk our business going live on it.

(If they do manage to do it, I hope it resolves your process issues.)

Thanks for the tip Jessi... It's nice to get a heads up on potential future changes that might have such a big impact on our business.

Any additonal info you learned would be greatly appreciated if you would pass it on.

Thanks

Rob




--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@...> wrote:
From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@...>
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 1:25 PM












Just got confirmation from Epicor that this is a bug and that there are 2 different SCR #'s for this issue.



Just waiting to get the information from Epicor what the SCR#'s are and when they will be released.



Â



____________ _________ _________ __

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Sent: Monday, February 9, :08:27 AM

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



Rob,

Thanks for the rather intersting information.

Appreciate your help



____________ _________ _________ __

From: Robert Brown <robertb_versa@ yahoo.com>

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Sent: Monday, February 9, :56:52 AM

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



That's as designed (and how nearly every system I've ever seen works with subcontract/ outside service PO/OPs).



Rather than delete your linked POs, why isn't your job Scheduler/Planner just communicating to the Buyer the need to change the PO schedule (and doing so if possible after checking with vendor - or NOT doing so and leaving the job schedule intact if unable to change)?



(Some things are better to do via talk/email versu relying upon some self delusional capacity model driven system job schedule messages.)



Rob



--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com> wrote:



From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>

Subject: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 10:28 AM



We have found that our Subcontracing PO's are driving the dates when our jobs are being rescheduled instead of the reschedule of the job creating a rescheduling message to more out the P.O. datein or out. The only way around it is to go to the subcontracting P.O., delete the items off of it, reschedule the job, then reinsert the items back into the P.O.

Â

Has anyone else ever experienced this or know if this is fixed in a future release?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I did not like the Subcontract PO process with Vantage. I found it much
easier to just purchase our subcontract OP's on Purchase direct PO's and
use the resource Queue time to allow for the OP lead time. But I think
it depends on the nature of your business and your subcontract OP as to
whether the canned Vantage method will work best.



Regards,





Andrew Best

Kice Industries, Inc.

P(316)744-7151

F(316)295-2412



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Robert Brown
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 10:42 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS




Far be it from me to argue with the Support Gods at Epicor, but I think
they've been sipping too much of their Sales Group's psychodelic
Kool-Aid.

If you look in depth at the multi-table data-structures of Methods (and
very similar structures when those methods are generated and scheduled
as Job Details), you'll find subcontract OPs (at method level and as a
job detail UNTIL you actual create and link a PO to the subcontract OP)
are totally schedule offset by the 'days out' value in the method.

Once you create a linked subcontract PO to a scheduled subcontract OP,
the 'days out' value that acted as a scheduling offset previously (for
subcontract OP start/end dates) is replaced entirely by the PO Entry
date (start) and linked PO/line/release due date.

These PO linked subcontract OPs effectively become locked to the
scheduler (just as if you were configured to not reschedule in-process
OPs)... The scheduler just does its best to maintain your defined OP to
OP sequence directions (finish-start for serial OPs & start-start or
finish to finish for parallel defined OPs) within the bounds of your
defining/controlling subcontract PO dates.

Vantage has bug maintaining these defined OP sequences (SCR just created
as a result of 5 months of working through supports pat 'working as
designed' answers and us refusing to go away.

The fix for that isn't going to be out until 408 (which I expect in
reality means 409).

All that said, the global & MRP are not a single process and don't work
together in the way suggested: That scheduling would LIKE a subcontract
OP with a linked PO to be moved - but it can't by the very nature of the
data structures involved - So MRP cannot possibly 'see' that (post
schedule) the perfectly aligned subcontract PO to subcontract OP
requires some PO change message.

Vantage's MRP is already about as weak as they come - so the notion that
they are going to get it to do as suggested with these 2 SCR's you
mention is unlikely. To do so will require a not yet existing
scheduling/MRP bridging processer (and supporting data structures) to
provide the behavior you are looking for.

Frankly, I hope they don't try it as it will almost assuredly create new
wonderful bugs within the Global and MRP.

I (for one) would be happy if they just eliminate the existing bugs so
we could count on reliable, repetitive behavior (ideal or not).

Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE such a feature (only I'd like to be able
to control WHEN it is to be invoke). We have thousands of short duration
subcontract OPs for quick plating/anodizing/etc., processes which, once
PO linked, in our business I'd like to STAY locked and not bother people
with non-value added messages. We also have VERY long lead time
subcontract OPs where the behavior you describe would be useful.

I'm not trusting enough (based on Epicor's track record), that they
wouldn't screw one desireable behavior up in 'fixing' (really enhancing)
behavior for the other types.

Curious to know which release they plan to implement these SCRs when you
find out.

We'll definitely have to do some heavy piloting to test this behavior
again when that release is available before risk our business going live
on it.

(If they do manage to do it, I hope it resolves your process issues.)

Thanks for the tip Jessi... It's nice to get a heads up on potential
future changes that might have such a big impact on our business.

Any additonal info you learned would be greatly appreciated if you would
pass it on.

Thanks

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@...
<mailto:jessi.utecht%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@...
<mailto:jessi.utecht%40yahoo.com> >
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 1:25 PM

Just got confirmation from Epicor that this is a bug and that there are
2 different SCR #'s for this issue.

Just waiting to get the information from Epicor what the SCR#'s are and
when they will be released.



____________ _________ _________ __

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Sent: Monday, February 9, :08:27 AM

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

Rob,

Thanks for the rather intersting information.

Appreciate your help

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Robert Brown <robertb_versa@ yahoo.com>

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Sent: Monday, February 9, :56:52 AM

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

That's as designed (and how nearly every system I've ever seen works
with subcontract/ outside service PO/OPs).

Rather than delete your linked POs, why isn't your job Scheduler/Planner
just communicating to the Buyer the need to change the PO schedule (and
doing so if possible after checking with vendor - or NOT doing so and
leaving the job schedule intact if unable to change)?

(Some things are better to do via talk/email versu relying upon some
self delusional capacity model driven system job schedule messages.)

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>

Subject: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 10:28 AM

We have found that our Subcontracing PO's are driving the dates when our
jobs are being rescheduled instead of the reschedule of the job creating
a rescheduling message to more out the P.O. datein or out. The only
way around it is to go to the subcontracting P.O., delete the items off
of it, reschedule the job, then reinsert the items back into the P.O.



Has anyone else ever experienced this or know if this is fixed in a
future release?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Neat trick Andrew.

Our legacy system (Profitkey) essentially handled it like that. Difference being I could actually specify the 'material' detail as a "S"ervice.

So far we're living with the paradigm shift (after realizing too late that there is no Time Phase like netting view of subcontract services that planners & buyers are so used to using - so our IT wizards developed a subcontract PO web tool).

If the winds ever blow towards making a change I'll remember your method.

Thanks.

Rob

--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Andrew Best <abest@...> wrote:
From: Andrew Best <abest@...>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 11:00 AM












I did not like the Subcontract PO process with Vantage. I found it much

easier to just purchase our subcontract OP's on Purchase direct PO's and

use the resource Queue time to allow for the OP lead time. But I think

it depends on the nature of your business and your subcontract OP as to

whether the canned Vantage method will work best.



Regards,



Andrew Best



Kice Industries, Inc.



P



F



From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf

Of Robert Brown

Sent: Monday, February 09, :42 PM

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



Far be it from me to argue with the Support Gods at Epicor, but I think

they've been sipping too much of their Sales Group's psychodelic

Kool-Aid.



If you look in depth at the multi-table data-structures of Methods (and

very similar structures when those methods are generated and scheduled

as Job Details), you'll find subcontract OPs (at method level and as a

job detail UNTIL you actual create and link a PO to the subcontract OP)

are totally schedule offset by the 'days out' value in the method.



Once you create a linked subcontract PO to a scheduled subcontract OP,

the 'days out' value that acted as a scheduling offset previously (for

subcontract OP start/end dates) is replaced entirely by the PO Entry

date (start) and linked PO/line/release due date.



These PO linked subcontract OPs effectively become locked to the

scheduler (just as if you were configured to not reschedule in-process

OPs)... The scheduler just does its best to maintain your defined OP to

OP sequence directions (finish-start for serial OPs & start-start or

finish to finish for parallel defined OPs) within the bounds of your

defining/controllin g subcontract PO dates.



Vantage has bug maintaining these defined OP sequences (SCR just created

as a result of 5 months of working through supports pat 'working as

designed' answers and us refusing to go away.



The fix for that isn't going to be out until 408 (which I expect in

reality means 409).



All that said, the global & MRP are not a single process and don't work

together in the way suggested: That scheduling would LIKE a subcontract

OP with a linked PO to be moved - but it can't by the very nature of the

data structures involved - So MRP cannot possibly 'see' that (post

schedule) the perfectly aligned subcontract PO to subcontract OP

requires some PO change message.



Vantage's MRP is already about as weak as they come - so the notion that

they are going to get it to do as suggested with these 2 SCR's you

mention is unlikely. To do so will require a not yet existing

scheduling/MRP bridging processer (and supporting data structures) to

provide the behavior you are looking for.



Frankly, I hope they don't try it as it will almost assuredly create new

wonderful bugs within the Global and MRP.



I (for one) would be happy if they just eliminate the existing bugs so

we could count on reliable, repetitive behavior (ideal or not).



Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE such a feature (only I'd like to be able

to control WHEN it is to be invoke). We have thousands of short duration

subcontract OPs for quick plating/anodizing/ etc., processes which, once

PO linked, in our business I'd like to STAY locked and not bother people

with non-value added messages. We also have VERY long lead time

subcontract OPs where the behavior you describe would be useful.



I'm not trusting enough (based on Epicor's track record), that they

wouldn't screw one desireable behavior up in 'fixing' (really enhancing)

behavior for the other types.



Curious to know which release they plan to implement these SCRs when you

find out.



We'll definitely have to do some heavy piloting to test this behavior

again when that release is available before risk our business going live

on it.



(If they do manage to do it, I hope it resolves your process issues.)



Thanks for the tip Jessi... It's nice to get a heads up on potential

future changes that might have such a big impact on our business.



Any additonal info you learned would be greatly appreciated if you would

pass it on.



Thanks



Rob



--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com

<mailto:jessi. utecht%40yahoo. com> > wrote:

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com

<mailto:jessi. utecht%40yahoo. com> >

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com <mailto:vantage% 40yahoogroups. com>

Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 1:25 PM



Just got confirmation from Epicor that this is a bug and that there are

2 different SCR #'s for this issue.



Just waiting to get the information from Epicor what the SCR#'s are and

when they will be released.



____________ _________ _________ __



From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com



Sent: Monday, February 9, :08:27 AM



Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



Rob,



Thanks for the rather intersting information.



Appreciate your help



____________ _________ _________ __



From: Robert Brown <robertb_versa@ yahoo.com>



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com



Sent: Monday, February 9, :56:52 AM



Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



That's as designed (and how nearly every system I've ever seen works

with subcontract/ outside service PO/OPs).



Rather than delete your linked POs, why isn't your job Scheduler/Planner

just communicating to the Buyer the need to change the PO schedule (and

doing so if possible after checking with vendor - or NOT doing so and

leaving the job schedule intact if unable to change)?



(Some things are better to do via talk/email versu relying upon some

self delusional capacity model driven system job schedule messages.)



Rob



--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com> wrote:



From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>



Subject: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com



Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 10:28 AM



We have found that our Subcontracing PO's are driving the dates when our

jobs are being rescheduled instead of the reschedule of the job creating

a rescheduling message to more out the P.O. datein or out. The only

way around it is to go to the subcontracting P.O., delete the items off

of it, reschedule the job, then reinsert the items back into the P.O.



Has anyone else ever experienced this or know if this is fixed in a

future release?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What would be nice is that if Vantage allowed the user to manipulate the
Queue time per job. Syteline made scheduling extremely flexible by
allowing the queue and move to be changed on each job. It made
scheduling around the bottlenecks much easier.



It would also help on OP's when you rush an order from a supplier.
Normally Chrome takes 2 weeks, but we can have it done in a week or even
less if needed.



Regards,





Andrew Best

Kice Industries, Inc.

P(316)744-7151

F(316)295-2412



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Robert Brown
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:39 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS




Neat trick Andrew.

Our legacy system (Profitkey) essentially handled it like that.
Difference being I could actually specify the 'material' detail as a
"S"ervice.

So far we're living with the paradigm shift (after realizing too late
that there is no Time Phase like netting view of subcontract services
that planners & buyers are so used to using - so our IT wizards
developed a subcontract PO web tool).

If the winds ever blow towards making a change I'll remember your
method.

Thanks.

Rob

--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Andrew Best <abest@...
<mailto:abest%40kice.com> > wrote:
From: Andrew Best <abest@... <mailto:abest%40kice.com> >
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 11:00 AM

I did not like the Subcontract PO process with Vantage. I found it much

easier to just purchase our subcontract OP's on Purchase direct PO's and

use the resource Queue time to allow for the OP lead time. But I think

it depends on the nature of your business and your subcontract OP as to

whether the canned Vantage method will work best.

Regards,

Andrew Best

Kice Industries, Inc.

P

F

From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups .com] On
Behalf

Of Robert Brown

Sent: Monday, February 09, :42 PM

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

Far be it from me to argue with the Support Gods at Epicor, but I think

they've been sipping too much of their Sales Group's psychodelic

Kool-Aid.

If you look in depth at the multi-table data-structures of Methods (and

very similar structures when those methods are generated and scheduled

as Job Details), you'll find subcontract OPs (at method level and as a

job detail UNTIL you actual create and link a PO to the subcontract OP)

are totally schedule offset by the 'days out' value in the method.

Once you create a linked subcontract PO to a scheduled subcontract OP,

the 'days out' value that acted as a scheduling offset previously (for

subcontract OP start/end dates) is replaced entirely by the PO Entry

date (start) and linked PO/line/release due date.

These PO linked subcontract OPs effectively become locked to the

scheduler (just as if you were configured to not reschedule in-process

OPs)... The scheduler just does its best to maintain your defined OP to

OP sequence directions (finish-start for serial OPs & start-start or

finish to finish for parallel defined OPs) within the bounds of your

defining/controllin g subcontract PO dates.

Vantage has bug maintaining these defined OP sequences (SCR just created

as a result of 5 months of working through supports pat 'working as

designed' answers and us refusing to go away.

The fix for that isn't going to be out until 408 (which I expect in

reality means 409).

All that said, the global & MRP are not a single process and don't work

together in the way suggested: That scheduling would LIKE a subcontract

OP with a linked PO to be moved - but it can't by the very nature of the

data structures involved - So MRP cannot possibly 'see' that (post

schedule) the perfectly aligned subcontract PO to subcontract OP

requires some PO change message.

Vantage's MRP is already about as weak as they come - so the notion that

they are going to get it to do as suggested with these 2 SCR's you

mention is unlikely. To do so will require a not yet existing

scheduling/MRP bridging processer (and supporting data structures) to

provide the behavior you are looking for.

Frankly, I hope they don't try it as it will almost assuredly create new

wonderful bugs within the Global and MRP.

I (for one) would be happy if they just eliminate the existing bugs so

we could count on reliable, repetitive behavior (ideal or not).

Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE such a feature (only I'd like to be able

to control WHEN it is to be invoke). We have thousands of short duration

subcontract OPs for quick plating/anodizing/ etc., processes which, once

PO linked, in our business I'd like to STAY locked and not bother people

with non-value added messages. We also have VERY long lead time

subcontract OPs where the behavior you describe would be useful.

I'm not trusting enough (based on Epicor's track record), that they

wouldn't screw one desireable behavior up in 'fixing' (really enhancing)

behavior for the other types.

Curious to know which release they plan to implement these SCRs when you

find out.

We'll definitely have to do some heavy piloting to test this behavior

again when that release is available before risk our business going live

on it.

(If they do manage to do it, I hope it resolves your process issues.)

Thanks for the tip Jessi... It's nice to get a heads up on potential

future changes that might have such a big impact on our business.

Any additonal info you learned would be greatly appreciated if you would

pass it on.

Thanks

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com

<mailto:jessi. utecht%40yahoo. com> > wrote:

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com

<mailto:jessi. utecht%40yahoo. com> >

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com <mailto:vantage% 40yahoogroups. com>

Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 1:25 PM

Just got confirmation from Epicor that this is a bug and that there are

2 different SCR #'s for this issue.

Just waiting to get the information from Epicor what the SCR#'s are and

when they will be released.

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Sent: Monday, February 9, :08:27 AM

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

Rob,

Thanks for the rather intersting information.

Appreciate your help

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Robert Brown <robertb_versa@ yahoo.com>

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Sent: Monday, February 9, :56:52 AM

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

That's as designed (and how nearly every system I've ever seen works

with subcontract/ outside service PO/OPs).

Rather than delete your linked POs, why isn't your job Scheduler/Planner

just communicating to the Buyer the need to change the PO schedule (and

doing so if possible after checking with vendor - or NOT doing so and

leaving the job schedule intact if unable to change)?

(Some things are better to do via talk/email versu relying upon some

self delusional capacity model driven system job schedule messages.)

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>

Subject: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 10:28 AM

We have found that our Subcontracing PO's are driving the dates when our

jobs are being rescheduled instead of the reschedule of the job creating

a rescheduling message to more out the P.O. datein or out. The only

way around it is to go to the subcontracting P.O., delete the items off

of it, reschedule the job, then reinsert the items back into the P.O.

Has anyone else ever experienced this or know if this is fixed in a

future release?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
YES! We need that functionality also and have raised this several
times, including at Perspectives 2006.

I added enhancement request# 22701MPS back in 2006 for very similar
issue. If anyone else has this need, please add your name to it!

<DIV><font size="1.5" face="Bookman Old Style">__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<DIV><FONT>
Just curious Andrew - What drive your company to dump Syteline (?7?) for this piece of junk? (Bad VAR?)

Rob



--- On Mon, 2/16/09, Andrew Best <abest@...> wrote:
From: Andrew Best <abest@...>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, February 16, 2009, 12:59 PM












What would be nice is that if Vantage allowed the user to manipulate the

Queue time per job. Syteline made scheduling extremely flexible by

allowing the queue and move to be changed on each job. It made

scheduling around the bottlenecks much easier.



It would also help on OP's when you rush an order from a supplier.

Normally Chrome takes 2 weeks, but we can have it done in a week or even

less if needed.



Regards,



Andrew Best



Kice Industries, Inc.



P



F



From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf

Of Robert Brown

Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:39 PM

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



Neat trick Andrew.



Our legacy system (Profitkey) essentially handled it like that.

Difference being I could actually specify the 'material' detail as a

"S"ervice.



So far we're living with the paradigm shift (after realizing too late

that there is no Time Phase like netting view of subcontract services

that planners & buyers are so used to using - so our IT wizards

developed a subcontract PO web tool).



If the winds ever blow towards making a change I'll remember your

method.



Thanks.



Rob



--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Andrew Best <abest@...

<mailto:abest% 40kice.com> > wrote:

From: Andrew Best <abest@... <mailto:abest% 40kice.com> >

Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com <mailto:vantage% 40yahoogroups. com>

Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 11:00 AM



I did not like the Subcontract PO process with Vantage. I found it much



easier to just purchase our subcontract OP's on Purchase direct PO's and



use the resource Queue time to allow for the OP lead time. But I think



it depends on the nature of your business and your subcontract OP as to



whether the canned Vantage method will work best.



Regards,



Andrew Best



Kice Industries, Inc.



P



F



From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@ yahoogroups .com] On

Behalf



Of Robert Brown



Sent: Monday, February 09, :42 PM



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com



Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



Far be it from me to argue with the Support Gods at Epicor, but I think



they've been sipping too much of their Sales Group's psychodelic



Kool-Aid.



If you look in depth at the multi-table data-structures of Methods (and



very similar structures when those methods are generated and scheduled



as Job Details), you'll find subcontract OPs (at method level and as a



job detail UNTIL you actual create and link a PO to the subcontract OP)



are totally schedule offset by the 'days out' value in the method.



Once you create a linked subcontract PO to a scheduled subcontract OP,



the 'days out' value that acted as a scheduling offset previously (for



subcontract OP start/end dates) is replaced entirely by the PO Entry



date (start) and linked PO/line/release due date.



These PO linked subcontract OPs effectively become locked to the



scheduler (just as if you were configured to not reschedule in-process



OPs)... The scheduler just does its best to maintain your defined OP to



OP sequence directions (finish-start for serial OPs & start-start or



finish to finish for parallel defined OPs) within the bounds of your



defining/controllin g subcontract PO dates.



Vantage has bug maintaining these defined OP sequences (SCR just created



as a result of 5 months of working through supports pat 'working as



designed' answers and us refusing to go away.



The fix for that isn't going to be out until 408 (which I expect in



reality means 409).



All that said, the global & MRP are not a single process and don't work



together in the way suggested: That scheduling would LIKE a subcontract



OP with a linked PO to be moved - but it can't by the very nature of the



data structures involved - So MRP cannot possibly 'see' that (post



schedule) the perfectly aligned subcontract PO to subcontract OP



requires some PO change message.



Vantage's MRP is already about as weak as they come - so the notion that



they are going to get it to do as suggested with these 2 SCR's you



mention is unlikely. To do so will require a not yet existing



scheduling/MRP bridging processer (and supporting data structures) to



provide the behavior you are looking for.



Frankly, I hope they don't try it as it will almost assuredly create new



wonderful bugs within the Global and MRP.



I (for one) would be happy if they just eliminate the existing bugs so



we could count on reliable, repetitive behavior (ideal or not).



Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE such a feature (only I'd like to be able



to control WHEN it is to be invoke). We have thousands of short duration



subcontract OPs for quick plating/anodizing/ etc., processes which, once



PO linked, in our business I'd like to STAY locked and not bother people



with non-value added messages. We also have VERY long lead time



subcontract OPs where the behavior you describe would be useful.



I'm not trusting enough (based on Epicor's track record), that they



wouldn't screw one desireable behavior up in 'fixing' (really enhancing)



behavior for the other types.



Curious to know which release they plan to implement these SCRs when you



find out.



We'll definitely have to do some heavy piloting to test this behavior



again when that release is available before risk our business going live



on it.



(If they do manage to do it, I hope it resolves your process issues.)



Thanks for the tip Jessi... It's nice to get a heads up on potential



future changes that might have such a big impact on our business.



Any additonal info you learned would be greatly appreciated if you would



pass it on.



Thanks



Rob



--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com



<mailto:jessi. utecht%40yahoo. com> > wrote:



From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com



<mailto:jessi. utecht%40yahoo. com> >



Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com <mailto:vantage% 40yahoogroups. com>



Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 1:25 PM



Just got confirmation from Epicor that this is a bug and that there are



2 different SCR #'s for this issue.



Just waiting to get the information from Epicor what the SCR#'s are and



when they will be released.



____________ _________ _________ __



From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com



Sent: Monday, February 9, :08:27 AM



Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



Rob,



Thanks for the rather intersting information.



Appreciate your help



____________ _________ _________ __



From: Robert Brown <robertb_versa@ yahoo.com>



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com



Sent: Monday, February 9, :56:52 AM



Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



That's as designed (and how nearly every system I've ever seen works



with subcontract/ outside service PO/OPs).



Rather than delete your linked POs, why isn't your job Scheduler/Planner



just communicating to the Buyer the need to change the PO schedule (and



doing so if possible after checking with vendor - or NOT doing so and



leaving the job schedule intact if unable to change)?



(Some things are better to do via talk/email versu relying upon some



self delusional capacity model driven system job schedule messages.)



Rob



--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com> wrote:



From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>



Subject: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com



Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 10:28 AM



We have found that our Subcontracing PO's are driving the dates when our



jobs are being rescheduled instead of the reschedule of the job creating



a rescheduling message to more out the P.O. datein or out. The only



way around it is to go to the subcontracting P.O., delete the items off



of it, reschedule the job, then reinsert the items back into the P.O.



Has anyone else ever experienced this or know if this is fixed in a



future release?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andrew: Have you tried setting extended properties on the 'days out' job field so that read only - false?

That would allow you to edit individual job details to match your subcontract desires.

Note: Once you place the linked subcontract PO, the PO due date SHOULD become the end date for the subcontract OP.

If it's not, something else might be amiss in you config or data.

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/16/09, Andrew Best <abest@...> wrote:
From: Andrew Best <abest@...>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, February 16, 2009, 12:59 PM












What would be nice is that if Vantage allowed the user to manipulate the

Queue time per job. Syteline made scheduling extremely flexible by

allowing the queue and move to be changed on each job. It made

scheduling around the bottlenecks much easier.



It would also help on OP's when you rush an order from a supplier.

Normally Chrome takes 2 weeks, but we can have it done in a week or even

less if needed.



Regards,



Andrew Best



Kice Industries, Inc.



P



F



From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf

Of Robert Brown

Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:39 PM

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



Neat trick Andrew.



Our legacy system (Profitkey) essentially handled it like that.

Difference being I could actually specify the 'material' detail as a

"S"ervice.



So far we're living with the paradigm shift (after realizing too late

that there is no Time Phase like netting view of subcontract services

that planners & buyers are so used to using - so our IT wizards

developed a subcontract PO web tool).



If the winds ever blow towards making a change I'll remember your

method.



Thanks.



Rob



--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Andrew Best <abest@...

<mailto:abest% 40kice.com> > wrote:

From: Andrew Best <abest@... <mailto:abest% 40kice.com> >

Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com <mailto:vantage% 40yahoogroups. com>

Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 11:00 AM



I did not like the Subcontract PO process with Vantage. I found it much



easier to just purchase our subcontract OP's on Purchase direct PO's and



use the resource Queue time to allow for the OP lead time. But I think



it depends on the nature of your business and your subcontract OP as to



whether the canned Vantage method will work best.



Regards,



Andrew Best



Kice Industries, Inc.



P



F



From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@ yahoogroups .com] On

Behalf



Of Robert Brown



Sent: Monday, February 09, :42 PM



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com



Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



Far be it from me to argue with the Support Gods at Epicor, but I think



they've been sipping too much of their Sales Group's psychodelic



Kool-Aid.



If you look in depth at the multi-table data-structures of Methods (and



very similar structures when those methods are generated and scheduled



as Job Details), you'll find subcontract OPs (at method level and as a



job detail UNTIL you actual create and link a PO to the subcontract OP)



are totally schedule offset by the 'days out' value in the method.



Once you create a linked subcontract PO to a scheduled subcontract OP,



the 'days out' value that acted as a scheduling offset previously (for



subcontract OP start/end dates) is replaced entirely by the PO Entry



date (start) and linked PO/line/release due date.



These PO linked subcontract OPs effectively become locked to the



scheduler (just as if you were configured to not reschedule in-process



OPs)... The scheduler just does its best to maintain your defined OP to



OP sequence directions (finish-start for serial OPs & start-start or



finish to finish for parallel defined OPs) within the bounds of your



defining/controllin g subcontract PO dates.



Vantage has bug maintaining these defined OP sequences (SCR just created



as a result of 5 months of working through supports pat 'working as



designed' answers and us refusing to go away.



The fix for that isn't going to be out until 408 (which I expect in



reality means 409).



All that said, the global & MRP are not a single process and don't work



together in the way suggested: That scheduling would LIKE a subcontract



OP with a linked PO to be moved - but it can't by the very nature of the



data structures involved - So MRP cannot possibly 'see' that (post



schedule) the perfectly aligned subcontract PO to subcontract OP



requires some PO change message.



Vantage's MRP is already about as weak as they come - so the notion that



they are going to get it to do as suggested with these 2 SCR's you



mention is unlikely. To do so will require a not yet existing



scheduling/MRP bridging processer (and supporting data structures) to



provide the behavior you are looking for.



Frankly, I hope they don't try it as it will almost assuredly create new



wonderful bugs within the Global and MRP.



I (for one) would be happy if they just eliminate the existing bugs so



we could count on reliable, repetitive behavior (ideal or not).



Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE such a feature (only I'd like to be able



to control WHEN it is to be invoke). We have thousands of short duration



subcontract OPs for quick plating/anodizing/ etc., processes which, once



PO linked, in our business I'd like to STAY locked and not bother people



with non-value added messages. We also have VERY long lead time



subcontract OPs where the behavior you describe would be useful.



I'm not trusting enough (based on Epicor's track record), that they



wouldn't screw one desireable behavior up in 'fixing' (really enhancing)



behavior for the other types.



Curious to know which release they plan to implement these SCRs when you



find out.



We'll definitely have to do some heavy piloting to test this behavior



again when that release is available before risk our business going live



on it.



(If they do manage to do it, I hope it resolves your process issues.)



Thanks for the tip Jessi... It's nice to get a heads up on potential



future changes that might have such a big impact on our business.



Any additonal info you learned would be greatly appreciated if you would



pass it on.



Thanks



Rob



--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com



<mailto:jessi. utecht%40yahoo. com> > wrote:



From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com



<mailto:jessi. utecht%40yahoo. com> >



Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com <mailto:vantage% 40yahoogroups. com>



Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 1:25 PM



Just got confirmation from Epicor that this is a bug and that there are



2 different SCR #'s for this issue.



Just waiting to get the information from Epicor what the SCR#'s are and



when they will be released.



____________ _________ _________ __



From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com



Sent: Monday, February 9, :08:27 AM



Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



Rob,



Thanks for the rather intersting information.



Appreciate your help



____________ _________ _________ __



From: Robert Brown <robertb_versa@ yahoo.com>



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com



Sent: Monday, February 9, :56:52 AM



Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



That's as designed (and how nearly every system I've ever seen works



with subcontract/ outside service PO/OPs).



Rather than delete your linked POs, why isn't your job Scheduler/Planner



just communicating to the Buyer the need to change the PO schedule (and



doing so if possible after checking with vendor - or NOT doing so and



leaving the job schedule intact if unable to change)?



(Some things are better to do via talk/email versu relying upon some



self delusional capacity model driven system job schedule messages.)



Rob



--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com> wrote:



From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>



Subject: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS



To: vantage@yahoogroups .com



Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 10:28 AM



We have found that our Subcontracing PO's are driving the dates when our



jobs are being rescheduled instead of the reschedule of the job creating



a rescheduling message to more out the P.O. datein or out. The only



way around it is to go to the subcontracting P.O., delete the items off



of it, reschedule the job, then reinsert the items back into the P.O.



Has anyone else ever experienced this or know if this is fixed in a



future release?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We have logged calls about this also and received the standard "working
as designed" response. Maybe in Epicor 10.



Regards,





Andrew Best

Kice Industries, Inc.

P(316)744-7151

F(316)295-2412



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of sarah.vareschi@...
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 12:31 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS / Move and Queue time by JOB
OPERATION



YES! We need that functionality also and have raised this several
times, including at Perspectives 2006.

I added enhancement request# 22701MPS back in 2006 for very similar
issue. If anyone else has this need, please add your name to it!

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Style">__________________________________________________________

This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or
attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express
permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rob - What does this mean "you tried setting extended properties on the
'days out' job field so that read only - false" I am not sure what you
are speaking of.



Regards,





Andrew Best

Kice Industries, Inc.

P(316)744-7151

F(316)295-2412



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Robert Brown
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 1:49 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS




Andrew: Have you tried setting extended properties on the 'days out' job
field so that read only - false?

That would allow you to edit individual job details to match your
subcontract desires.

Note: Once you place the linked subcontract PO, the PO due date SHOULD
become the end date for the subcontract OP.

If it's not, something else might be amiss in you config or data.

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/16/09, Andrew Best <abest@...
<mailto:abest%40kice.com> > wrote:
From: Andrew Best <abest@... <mailto:abest%40kice.com> >
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, February 16, 2009, 12:59 PM

What would be nice is that if Vantage allowed the user to manipulate the

Queue time per job. Syteline made scheduling extremely flexible by

allowing the queue and move to be changed on each job. It made

scheduling around the bottlenecks much easier.

It would also help on OP's when you rush an order from a supplier.

Normally Chrome takes 2 weeks, but we can have it done in a week or even

less if needed.

Regards,

Andrew Best

Kice Industries, Inc.

P

F

From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups .com] On
Behalf

Of Robert Brown

Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:39 PM

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

Neat trick Andrew.

Our legacy system (Profitkey) essentially handled it like that.

Difference being I could actually specify the 'material' detail as a

"S"ervice.

So far we're living with the paradigm shift (after realizing too late

that there is no Time Phase like netting view of subcontract services

that planners & buyers are so used to using - so our IT wizards

developed a subcontract PO web tool).

If the winds ever blow towards making a change I'll remember your

method.

Thanks.

Rob

--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Andrew Best <abest@...
<mailto:abest%40kice.com>

<mailto:abest% 40kice.com> > wrote:

From: Andrew Best <abest@... <mailto:abest%40kice.com>
<mailto:abest% 40kice.com> >

Subject: RE: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com <mailto:vantage% 40yahoogroups. com>

Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 11:00 AM

I did not like the Subcontract PO process with Vantage. I found it much

easier to just purchase our subcontract OP's on Purchase direct PO's and

use the resource Queue time to allow for the OP lead time. But I think

it depends on the nature of your business and your subcontract OP as to

whether the canned Vantage method will work best.

Regards,

Andrew Best

Kice Industries, Inc.

P

F

From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@ yahoogroups .com] On

Behalf

Of Robert Brown

Sent: Monday, February 09, :42 PM

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

Far be it from me to argue with the Support Gods at Epicor, but I think

they've been sipping too much of their Sales Group's psychodelic

Kool-Aid.

If you look in depth at the multi-table data-structures of Methods (and

very similar structures when those methods are generated and scheduled

as Job Details), you'll find subcontract OPs (at method level and as a

job detail UNTIL you actual create and link a PO to the subcontract OP)

are totally schedule offset by the 'days out' value in the method.

Once you create a linked subcontract PO to a scheduled subcontract OP,

the 'days out' value that acted as a scheduling offset previously (for

subcontract OP start/end dates) is replaced entirely by the PO Entry

date (start) and linked PO/line/release due date.

These PO linked subcontract OPs effectively become locked to the

scheduler (just as if you were configured to not reschedule in-process

OPs)... The scheduler just does its best to maintain your defined OP to

OP sequence directions (finish-start for serial OPs & start-start or

finish to finish for parallel defined OPs) within the bounds of your

defining/controllin g subcontract PO dates.

Vantage has bug maintaining these defined OP sequences (SCR just created

as a result of 5 months of working through supports pat 'working as

designed' answers and us refusing to go away.

The fix for that isn't going to be out until 408 (which I expect in

reality means 409).

All that said, the global & MRP are not a single process and don't work

together in the way suggested: That scheduling would LIKE a subcontract

OP with a linked PO to be moved - but it can't by the very nature of the

data structures involved - So MRP cannot possibly 'see' that (post

schedule) the perfectly aligned subcontract PO to subcontract OP

requires some PO change message.

Vantage's MRP is already about as weak as they come - so the notion that

they are going to get it to do as suggested with these 2 SCR's you

mention is unlikely. To do so will require a not yet existing

scheduling/MRP bridging processer (and supporting data structures) to

provide the behavior you are looking for.

Frankly, I hope they don't try it as it will almost assuredly create new

wonderful bugs within the Global and MRP.

I (for one) would be happy if they just eliminate the existing bugs so

we could count on reliable, repetitive behavior (ideal or not).

Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE such a feature (only I'd like to be able

to control WHEN it is to be invoke). We have thousands of short duration

subcontract OPs for quick plating/anodizing/ etc., processes which, once

PO linked, in our business I'd like to STAY locked and not bother people

with non-value added messages. We also have VERY long lead time

subcontract OPs where the behavior you describe would be useful.

I'm not trusting enough (based on Epicor's track record), that they

wouldn't screw one desireable behavior up in 'fixing' (really enhancing)

behavior for the other types.

Curious to know which release they plan to implement these SCRs when you

find out.

We'll definitely have to do some heavy piloting to test this behavior

again when that release is available before risk our business going live

on it.

(If they do manage to do it, I hope it resolves your process issues.)

Thanks for the tip Jessi... It's nice to get a heads up on potential

future changes that might have such a big impact on our business.

Any additonal info you learned would be greatly appreciated if you would

pass it on.

Thanks

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com

<mailto:jessi. utecht%40yahoo. com> > wrote:

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com

<mailto:jessi. utecht%40yahoo. com> >

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com <mailto:vantage% 40yahoogroups. com>

Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 1:25 PM

Just got confirmation from Epicor that this is a bug and that there are

2 different SCR #'s for this issue.

Just waiting to get the information from Epicor what the SCR#'s are and

when they will be released.

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Sent: Monday, February 9, :08:27 AM

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

Rob,

Thanks for the rather intersting information.

Appreciate your help

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Robert Brown <robertb_versa@ yahoo.com>

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Sent: Monday, February 9, :56:52 AM

Subject: Re: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

That's as designed (and how nearly every system I've ever seen works

with subcontract/ outside service PO/OPs).

Rather than delete your linked POs, why isn't your job Scheduler/Planner

just communicating to the Buyer the need to change the PO schedule (and

doing so if possible after checking with vendor - or NOT doing so and

leaving the job schedule intact if unable to change)?

(Some things are better to do via talk/email versu relying upon some

self delusional capacity model driven system job schedule messages.)

Rob

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jessi Utecht <jessi.utecht@ yahoo.com>

Subject: [Vantage] Subcontracting POS

To: vantage@yahoogroups .com

Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 10:28 AM

We have found that our Subcontracing PO's are driving the dates when our

jobs are being rescheduled instead of the reschedule of the job creating

a rescheduling message to more out the P.O. datein or out. The only

way around it is to go to the subcontracting P.O., delete the items off

of it, reschedule the job, then reinsert the items back into the P.O.

Has anyone else ever experienced this or know if this is fixed in a

future release?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]