Thin Clients

Howdy,

New to the Group as of today.

Have you looked at www.thinsoftinc.com. They have a product called
WinConnect Server XP. It will support up to 21 simultaneous users
(with appropriate licensing) using only XP Professional on one PC.
Microsoft's licensing of Desktop software is different then in the
Terminal Services model. Office is licensed by the PC not the
users. Therefore 21 users can use one copy of office legally. I
called MS twice because I couldn't believe the Terminal Services
licensing change when XP SP1 came out.

It uses the RDP protocol and even supports the ActiveX component that
can be installed into IE so you don't even need to run the RDP
client. You just surf to the box - either by Host Name or IP
address. Several things are limited in the IE verses Remote Desktop
client, but from the sounds of your intent - less is a good thing.
And actually - with a little programming - it would be fairly easy to
setup load balancing to a XP Winconnect Server Farm when using the
Active X control RDP method. Which is a boat load of savings - both
in headaches and $$$$.

Thinsoft also has unix and pda RDP clients. So you could even
distance yourself further from MS. I still can't see Vantage running
on a PalmPilot - yet.

I've only played with the demo version of the product and for my
particular situation it wasn't a perfect fit. But there is lots of
potential.

Also - just a thought on the IP addressing. Just carve a 10.x.x.x
class A out for your organization. Chances are your hiding behind a
firewall or two using either NAT or Masquerade anyway. There are
alot of ways to slice up over 16 million ip's - so it's ok to waste a
few.

Charles Paluska
Home Planet Networks
Palus Technologies, LLC



--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell Kirby" <m.kirby@r...> wrote:
> I don't know enough about this to provide coherent feedback but I
sure would
> be interested in seeing your final results. Please keep us posted.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mitchell Kirby
> Riten Industries, Inc.
>
> 740-333-8719 Direct
> 800-338-0027 Sales
> 800-338-0717 FAX
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@j...]
> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 10:14 AM
> To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: [Vantage] Thin Clients
>
>
> Since some of you seem to be interested in thin clients here's the
basic
> details of what I'm trying to do.
>
> It's my intent to go 100% thin clients for our 3 remote locations (
over
> T-1's ) and 100% on the shop floor. If that works as well as a I
hope I'm
> going to start pulling PC's out of our offices and convert them to
thin
> clients also.
>
> And ... I do NOT want to use WTS/Citrix. I'm not crazy about the
concept
> and unless something has changed with MS, I really dislike the
licensing. I
> ran Citrix for 3-4 years starting back in 95 and always thought it
was
> quirky at best. Along with that MS was telling me at that time
that if I
> had 40 end users connected to 1 WTS/Citrix box then I needed 40
licenses of
> every software package installed since any of the clients could
potentially
> run each ap. For those of you who are currently running
WTS/Citrix - has
> this licensing madness changed?
>
> My intent is to do this using some combination of the following:
>
> * Just move the PC's into a back office location, run Win-XP-Pro
on them,
> and use thin clients via RDP.
> * Perhaps purchase something like a PC-Blade rack and do the same
thing.
> HP is working on coming out with PC-Blades but they are probably 6-
12 months
> away from prime time. If and when I have a better idea of what HP
is
> actually going to do on this front I'll pass it along.
> * If I can crack the licensing issues ... I'm going to try using
> VMWARE-workstation to split a some large PC's into multiple virtual
> operating systems running XP-Pro and then use the thin clients to
connect.
> As in - 1 PC = 3.0 ghz / 1 gig-ram / 40gig-drive = 3 thin clients.
>
> Using any of these options I still have essentially a 1 to 1
mapping between
> host operating system and thin client which means each host PC can
have
> whatever software loaded that I need without having the shared
environment
> of WTS/Citrix.
>
> I don't need or want the thin clients to do anything except run RDP
except
> to possibly make use of parallel ports for printing, USB ports for
wireless
> connections, or serial ports for downloading to some of our older
machines (
> nc ).
>
> >From what I've found so far any thin client running Ce.Net will
work. I
> haven't been able to pin down how Flash memory and RAM effect
performance
> using this model.
>
> Having just been on SourceForge.net to download TightVNC for
internal use so
> I can dump PcAnywhere I also see that they have a version that can
run on a
> Ce.Net thin client. That might actually open the door to using Win-
2000 on
> the back office PC's along with XP which would make life even more
> interesting for me since I already have a number of Win-2000
machines and
> have very few XP-Pro boxes at this time.
>
> Additional notes and reasons why I'm going down this road ...
>
> · Our end users are generally tired of having PC's cluttering
up their
> desktops and/or the floors under their desks. This is already the
driving
> force behind ultra small form factor PC's.
> · By moving PC's to back office locations with thin client
desktops
> you dramatically reduce the bandwidth requirements for applications
like
> client server. This is already the driving force behind
applications like
> Windows Terminal Server and Citrix. This is a huge issue when the
PC's are
> located at remote locations serviced by frame relay or other private
> networks.
> · By moving PC's to back office locations you also centralize
> maintenance and security. This generates a huge cost savings
compared to
> having PC technicians traveling to remote PC's whether they are
simply on
> other floors of an office building, across town, or in other states.
> · A centralized location for PC's allows for a much cleaner
> environment for the equipment. This cannot be understated when the
> alternative is shop floor locations where PC's are subject to dust,
oil,
> water, and extreme temperatures.
> · By moving PC's to back office locations it would be expected
that
> the physical distance between the PC's and the Servers that support
them
> would be very close compared to the complex cabling designs
currently used.
> This would allow me to design our network such that I have very
clean
> 100/1000 Ethernet to these back office PC's while only needing 10
mbps to
> the remote thin clients. Older equipment can then service the
desktop
> Ethernet requirements.
> · By moving PC's to back office locations you greatly reduce the
> energy requirements at the desktop, the heat generated in office
spaces, and
> the inherent ambient noise generated.
> · From a security point of view. Thin clients don't have to
have USB
> ports, CD's or Floppy drives. Just keyboard, mouse, and video
ports. This
> GREATLY reduces the legal problems caused by employees loading
illegal
> software and the security risk associated with employees downloading
> sensitive data to portable storage devices for theft of corporate
data. (
> Note: In researching thin clients so far all have had USB ports and
almost
> none have had CD's or Floppy drives. This still opens the door to
those
> pesky USB hard drives ... )
> · By utilizing software such as VMWARE PC's can now be
subdivided into
> multiple Virtual PC's where 1 back office PC can support multiple
desktops.
> · One interesting variation of the VMWARE approach would be to
use
> Linux as the host operating system and XP as the client virtual
operating
> system of choice. It eliminates the requirement for the XP host
license and
> would reduce the overall costs associated with this approach.
> · One potential downside to this approach: Every thin client
will
> consume one IP address as will every host. Using one to one
mapping via
> PC's or PC-Blades two IP addresses are consumed for each end user.
Using
> the VOS approach using a small PC with 3 VOS partitions you would
consume 4
> IP addresses for the host and 3 IP addresses for the thin clients.
Using
> WTS/Citrix you loose one IP address for each host but each host can
support
> a larger number of users. Depending on the number of PC's / Thin-
Clients
> supported this may force additional sub-nets in situations that are
> currently below capacity.
>
> And ... So far it looks like thin clients can be purchased for
around $ 300.
> Cheaper then the cost of some of fancy 'Factory proof' enclosures
I've seen
> over the years. Since the thin clients are sealed boxes with no
fans shop
> floor life expectancy should be excellent as long as they are not
crushed by
> high speed physical contact with steel objects. Toss in
a "Virtually
> Indestructible" keyboard and a monitor and I think you're in good
shape no
> matter what the environment.
>
> Has anyone tried the VNC Ce.Net thin client mapped against a stand
alone PC?
>
> So far I've reviewed Wyse, HP, and NeoWare thin clients and am
building a
> MS-Access DB of all of the specs and pricing I've found. Still
have another
> 4-6 vendors to review. If anyone is interested in the final review
let me
> know or if enough people are interested I'll just post it to the
list.
>
> Any feedback on any of this rambling info would be greatly
> appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Todd Anderson
>
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
If anyone out there is using actual thin clients in a Vantage environment
would you please contact me off list.

I'm trying to make sense of the thin client market and would like some
feedback from those of you who are already using these boxes.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson
We have four Thin Clinics here.
Ron LaPean
CMP
262-251-3200 x-128

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 4:28 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Thin Clients


If anyone out there is using actual thin clients in a Vantage environment
would you please contact me off list.

I'm trying to make sense of the thin client market and would like some
feedback from those of you who are already using these boxes.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson


Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>



_____

Yahoo! Groups Links


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wouldn't mind hearing this discussion onlist. We may be looking at that
option too next year.

Gary Polvinale
Denton ATD

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:28 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Thin Clients


If anyone out there is using actual thin clients in a Vantage environment
would you please contact me off list.

I'm trying to make sense of the thin client market and would like some
feedback from those of you who are already using these boxes.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson
We have 35 units. Feel free to contact.

Jeremy Leonard
IT Manager
K-T Corporation
317-398-6684
jleonard@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:28 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Thin Clients


If anyone out there is using actual thin clients in a Vantage environment
would you please contact me off list.

I'm trying to make sense of the thin client market and would like some
feedback from those of you who are already using these boxes.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson


Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
Gary,

I'm reviewing the market and the options. If I can figure it out I'll post
my results.

Of course, "IF" would be dependant my not being toooooo stupid to
comprehend.

Todd Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Polvinale [mailto:garyp@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 4:29 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Thin Clients


I wouldn't mind hearing this discussion onlist. We may be looking at that
option too next year.

Gary Polvinale
Denton ATD

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:28 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Thin Clients


If anyone out there is using actual thin clients in a Vantage environment
would you please contact me off list.

I'm trying to make sense of the thin client market and would like some
feedback from those of you who are already using these boxes.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson





Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>



_____

Yahoo! Groups Links


* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/>


* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Same here, I wouldn't mind seeing this discussion online. The more I
work with a terminal server, the more I like it as I can easily see a
maintenance relief.

Daniel M Tisone
Director of Operations and Information Services
dan.tisone@...
Office +1 (949) 440-3685 x148





-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Polvinale [mailto:garyp@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 2:29 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Thin Clients


I wouldn't mind hearing this discussion onlist. We may be looking at
that option too next year.

Gary Polvinale
Denton ATD

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:28 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Thin Clients


If anyone out there is using actual thin clients in a Vantage
environment would you please contact me off list.

I'm trying to make sense of the thin client market and would like some
feedback from those of you who are already using these boxes.

Thanks,

Todd Anderson





Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
We use terminal server for 3 different set ups. We use it for data
collections terminals running on really old PC's. We also use it for
a remote location over a T1 line. And we use it for our salesmen,
when they're out on the road they can dial in and start a terminal
server session. The performance is really good, except for the
salesmen with the dial up, and that is understandable.

Brian Stenglein
Clow Stamping Co.


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, Todd Anderson <tanderson@j...> wrote:
> If anyone out there is using actual thin clients in a Vantage
environment
> would you please contact me off list.
>
> I'm trying to make sense of the thin client market and would like
some
> feedback from those of you who are already using these boxes.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Todd Anderson
Since some of you seem to be interested in thin clients here's the basic
details of what I'm trying to do.

It's my intent to go 100% thin clients for our 3 remote locations ( over
T-1's ) and 100% on the shop floor. If that works as well as a I hope I'm
going to start pulling PC's out of our offices and convert them to thin
clients also.

And ... I do NOT want to use WTS/Citrix. I'm not crazy about the concept
and unless something has changed with MS, I really dislike the licensing. I
ran Citrix for 3-4 years starting back in 95 and always thought it was
quirky at best. Along with that MS was telling me at that time that if I
had 40 end users connected to 1 WTS/Citrix box then I needed 40 licenses of
every software package installed since any of the clients could potentially
run each ap. For those of you who are currently running WTS/Citrix - has
this licensing madness changed?

My intent is to do this using some combination of the following:

* Just move the PC's into a back office location, run Win-XP-Pro on them,
and use thin clients via RDP.
* Perhaps purchase something like a PC-Blade rack and do the same thing.
HP is working on coming out with PC-Blades but they are probably 6-12 months
away from prime time. If and when I have a better idea of what HP is
actually going to do on this front I'll pass it along.
* If I can crack the licensing issues ... I'm going to try using
VMWARE-workstation to split a some large PC's into multiple virtual
operating systems running XP-Pro and then use the thin clients to connect.
As in - 1 PC = 3.0 ghz / 1 gig-ram / 40gig-drive = 3 thin clients.

Using any of these options I still have essentially a 1 to 1 mapping between
host operating system and thin client which means each host PC can have
whatever software loaded that I need without having the shared environment
of WTS/Citrix.

I don't need or want the thin clients to do anything except run RDP except
to possibly make use of parallel ports for printing, USB ports for wireless
connections, or serial ports for downloading to some of our older machines (
nc ).

From what I've found so far any thin client running Ce.Net will work. I
haven't been able to pin down how Flash memory and RAM effect performance
using this model.

Having just been on SourceForge.net to download TightVNC for internal use so
I can dump PcAnywhere I also see that they have a version that can run on a
Ce.Net thin client. That might actually open the door to using Win-2000 on
the back office PC's along with XP which would make life even more
interesting for me since I already have a number of Win-2000 machines and
have very few XP-Pro boxes at this time.

Additional notes and reasons why I'm going down this road ...

· Our end users are generally tired of having PC's cluttering up their
desktops and/or the floors under their desks. This is already the driving
force behind ultra small form factor PC's.
· By moving PC's to back office locations with thin client desktops
you dramatically reduce the bandwidth requirements for applications like
client server. This is already the driving force behind applications like
Windows Terminal Server and Citrix. This is a huge issue when the PC's are
located at remote locations serviced by frame relay or other private
networks.
· By moving PC's to back office locations you also centralize
maintenance and security. This generates a huge cost savings compared to
having PC technicians traveling to remote PC's whether they are simply on
other floors of an office building, across town, or in other states.
· A centralized location for PC's allows for a much cleaner
environment for the equipment. This cannot be understated when the
alternative is shop floor locations where PC's are subject to dust, oil,
water, and extreme temperatures.
· By moving PC's to back office locations it would be expected that
the physical distance between the PC's and the Servers that support them
would be very close compared to the complex cabling designs currently used.
This would allow me to design our network such that I have very clean
100/1000 Ethernet to these back office PC's while only needing 10 mbps to
the remote thin clients. Older equipment can then service the desktop
Ethernet requirements.
· By moving PC's to back office locations you greatly reduce the
energy requirements at the desktop, the heat generated in office spaces, and
the inherent ambient noise generated.
· From a security point of view. Thin clients don't have to have USB
ports, CD's or Floppy drives. Just keyboard, mouse, and video ports. This
GREATLY reduces the legal problems caused by employees loading illegal
software and the security risk associated with employees downloading
sensitive data to portable storage devices for theft of corporate data. (
Note: In researching thin clients so far all have had USB ports and almost
none have had CD's or Floppy drives. This still opens the door to those
pesky USB hard drives ... )
· By utilizing software such as VMWARE PC's can now be subdivided into
multiple Virtual PC's where 1 back office PC can support multiple desktops.
· One interesting variation of the VMWARE approach would be to use
Linux as the host operating system and XP as the client virtual operating
system of choice. It eliminates the requirement for the XP host license and
would reduce the overall costs associated with this approach.
· One potential downside to this approach: Every thin client will
consume one IP address as will every host. Using one to one mapping via
PC's or PC-Blades two IP addresses are consumed for each end user. Using
the VOS approach using a small PC with 3 VOS partitions you would consume 4
IP addresses for the host and 3 IP addresses for the thin clients. Using
WTS/Citrix you loose one IP address for each host but each host can support
a larger number of users. Depending on the number of PC's / Thin-Clients
supported this may force additional sub-nets in situations that are
currently below capacity.

And ... So far it looks like thin clients can be purchased for around $ 300.
Cheaper then the cost of some of fancy 'Factory proof' enclosures I've seen
over the years. Since the thin clients are sealed boxes with no fans shop
floor life expectancy should be excellent as long as they are not crushed by
high speed physical contact with steel objects. Toss in a "Virtually
Indestructible" keyboard and a monitor and I think you're in good shape no
matter what the environment.

Has anyone tried the VNC Ce.Net thin client mapped against a stand alone PC?

So far I've reviewed Wyse, HP, and NeoWare thin clients and am building a
MS-Access DB of all of the specs and pricing I've found. Still have another
4-6 vendors to review. If anyone is interested in the final review let me
know or if enough people are interested I'll just post it to the list.

Any feedback on any of this rambling info would be greatly
appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Todd Anderson
I don't know enough about this to provide coherent feedback but I sure would
be interested in seeing your final results. Please keep us posted.

Thanks,

Mitchell Kirby
Riten Industries, Inc.

740-333-8719 Direct
800-338-0027 Sales
800-338-0717 FAX


-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 10:14 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Thin Clients


Since some of you seem to be interested in thin clients here's the basic
details of what I'm trying to do.

It's my intent to go 100% thin clients for our 3 remote locations ( over
T-1's ) and 100% on the shop floor. If that works as well as a I hope I'm
going to start pulling PC's out of our offices and convert them to thin
clients also.

And ... I do NOT want to use WTS/Citrix. I'm not crazy about the concept
and unless something has changed with MS, I really dislike the licensing. I
ran Citrix for 3-4 years starting back in 95 and always thought it was
quirky at best. Along with that MS was telling me at that time that if I
had 40 end users connected to 1 WTS/Citrix box then I needed 40 licenses of
every software package installed since any of the clients could potentially
run each ap. For those of you who are currently running WTS/Citrix - has
this licensing madness changed?

My intent is to do this using some combination of the following:

* Just move the PC's into a back office location, run Win-XP-Pro on them,
and use thin clients via RDP.
* Perhaps purchase something like a PC-Blade rack and do the same thing.
HP is working on coming out with PC-Blades but they are probably 6-12 months
away from prime time. If and when I have a better idea of what HP is
actually going to do on this front I'll pass it along.
* If I can crack the licensing issues ... I'm going to try using
VMWARE-workstation to split a some large PC's into multiple virtual
operating systems running XP-Pro and then use the thin clients to connect.
As in - 1 PC = 3.0 ghz / 1 gig-ram / 40gig-drive = 3 thin clients.

Using any of these options I still have essentially a 1 to 1 mapping between
host operating system and thin client which means each host PC can have
whatever software loaded that I need without having the shared environment
of WTS/Citrix.

I don't need or want the thin clients to do anything except run RDP except
to possibly make use of parallel ports for printing, USB ports for wireless
connections, or serial ports for downloading to some of our older machines (
nc ).

>From what I've found so far any thin client running Ce.Net will work. I
haven't been able to pin down how Flash memory and RAM effect performance
using this model.

Having just been on SourceForge.net to download TightVNC for internal use so
I can dump PcAnywhere I also see that they have a version that can run on a
Ce.Net thin client. That might actually open the door to using Win-2000 on
the back office PC's along with XP which would make life even more
interesting for me since I already have a number of Win-2000 machines and
have very few XP-Pro boxes at this time.

Additional notes and reasons why I'm going down this road ...

· Our end users are generally tired of having PC's cluttering up their
desktops and/or the floors under their desks. This is already the driving
force behind ultra small form factor PC's.
· By moving PC's to back office locations with thin client desktops
you dramatically reduce the bandwidth requirements for applications like
client server. This is already the driving force behind applications like
Windows Terminal Server and Citrix. This is a huge issue when the PC's are
located at remote locations serviced by frame relay or other private
networks.
· By moving PC's to back office locations you also centralize
maintenance and security. This generates a huge cost savings compared to
having PC technicians traveling to remote PC's whether they are simply on
other floors of an office building, across town, or in other states.
· A centralized location for PC's allows for a much cleaner
environment for the equipment. This cannot be understated when the
alternative is shop floor locations where PC's are subject to dust, oil,
water, and extreme temperatures.
· By moving PC's to back office locations it would be expected that
the physical distance between the PC's and the Servers that support them
would be very close compared to the complex cabling designs currently used.
This would allow me to design our network such that I have very clean
100/1000 Ethernet to these back office PC's while only needing 10 mbps to
the remote thin clients. Older equipment can then service the desktop
Ethernet requirements.
· By moving PC's to back office locations you greatly reduce the
energy requirements at the desktop, the heat generated in office spaces, and
the inherent ambient noise generated.
· From a security point of view. Thin clients don't have to have USB
ports, CD's or Floppy drives. Just keyboard, mouse, and video ports. This
GREATLY reduces the legal problems caused by employees loading illegal
software and the security risk associated with employees downloading
sensitive data to portable storage devices for theft of corporate data. (
Note: In researching thin clients so far all have had USB ports and almost
none have had CD's or Floppy drives. This still opens the door to those
pesky USB hard drives ... )
· By utilizing software such as VMWARE PC's can now be subdivided into
multiple Virtual PC's where 1 back office PC can support multiple desktops.
· One interesting variation of the VMWARE approach would be to use
Linux as the host operating system and XP as the client virtual operating
system of choice. It eliminates the requirement for the XP host license and
would reduce the overall costs associated with this approach.
· One potential downside to this approach: Every thin client will
consume one IP address as will every host. Using one to one mapping via
PC's or PC-Blades two IP addresses are consumed for each end user. Using
the VOS approach using a small PC with 3 VOS partitions you would consume 4
IP addresses for the host and 3 IP addresses for the thin clients. Using
WTS/Citrix you loose one IP address for each host but each host can support
a larger number of users. Depending on the number of PC's / Thin-Clients
supported this may force additional sub-nets in situations that are
currently below capacity.

And ... So far it looks like thin clients can be purchased for around $ 300.
Cheaper then the cost of some of fancy 'Factory proof' enclosures I've seen
over the years. Since the thin clients are sealed boxes with no fans shop
floor life expectancy should be excellent as long as they are not crushed by
high speed physical contact with steel objects. Toss in a "Virtually
Indestructible" keyboard and a monitor and I think you're in good shape no
matter what the environment.

Has anyone tried the VNC Ce.Net thin client mapped against a stand alone PC?

So far I've reviewed Wyse, HP, and NeoWare thin clients and am building a
MS-Access DB of all of the specs and pricing I've found. Still have another
4-6 vendors to review. If anyone is interested in the final review let me
know or if enough people are interested I'll just post it to the list.

Any feedback on any of this rambling info would be greatly
appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Todd Anderson





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Todd,

You're light years ahead of me on this. But yes, I'd be interested in
seeing the final results. Thanks.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Anderson [mailto:tanderson@...]
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 10:14 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [Vantage] Thin Clients


Since some of you seem to be interested in thin clients here's the basic
details of what I'm trying to do.

It's my intent to go 100% thin clients for our 3 remote locations ( over
T-1's ) and 100% on the shop floor. If that works as well as a I hope I'm
going to start pulling PC's out of our offices and convert them to thin
clients also.

And ... I do NOT want to use WTS/Citrix. I'm not crazy about the concept
and unless something has changed with MS, I really dislike the licensing. I
ran Citrix for 3-4 years starting back in 95 and always thought it was
quirky at best. Along with that MS was telling me at that time that if I
had 40 end users connected to 1 WTS/Citrix box then I needed 40 licenses of
every software package installed since any of the clients could potentially
run each ap. For those of you who are currently running WTS/Citrix - has
this licensing madness changed?

My intent is to do this using some combination of the following:

* Just move the PC's into a back office location, run Win-XP-Pro on them,
and use thin clients via RDP.
* Perhaps purchase something like a PC-Blade rack and do the same thing. HP
is working on coming out with PC-Blades but they are probably 6-12 months
away from prime time. If and when I have a better idea of what HP is
actually going to do on this front I'll pass it along.
* If I can crack the licensing issues ... I'm going to try using
VMWARE-workstation to split a some large PC's into multiple virtual
operating systems running XP-Pro and then use the thin clients to connect.
As in - 1 PC = 3.0 ghz / 1 gig-ram / 40gig-drive = 3 thin clients.

Using any of these options I still have essentially a 1 to 1 mapping between
host operating system and thin client which means each host PC can have
whatever software loaded that I need without having the shared environment
of WTS/Citrix.

I don't need or want the thin clients to do anything except run RDP except
to possibly make use of parallel ports for printing, USB ports for wireless
connections, or serial ports for downloading to some of our older machines (
nc ).

From what I've found so far any thin client running Ce.Net will work. I
haven't been able to pin down how Flash memory and RAM effect performance
using this model.

Having just been on SourceForge.net to download TightVNC for internal use so
I can dump PcAnywhere I also see that they have a version that can run on a
Ce.Net thin client. That might actually open the door to using Win-2000 on
the back office PC's along with XP which would make life even more
interesting for me since I already have a number of Win-2000 machines and
have very few XP-Pro boxes at this time.

Additional notes and reasons why I'm going down this road ...

. Our end users are generally tired of having PC's cluttering up their
desktops and/or the floors under their desks. This is already the driving
force behind ultra small form factor PC's.
. By moving PC's to back office locations with thin client desktops
you dramatically reduce the bandwidth requirements for applications like
client server. This is already the driving force behind applications like
Windows Terminal Server and Citrix. This is a huge issue when the PC's are
located at remote locations serviced by frame relay or other private
networks.
. By moving PC's to back office locations you also centralize
maintenance and security. This generates a huge cost savings compared to
having PC technicians traveling to remote PC's whether they are simply on
other floors of an office building, across town, or in other states.
. A centralized location for PC's allows for a much cleaner
environment for the equipment. This cannot be understated when the
alternative is shop floor locations where PC's are subject to dust, oil,
water, and extreme temperatures.
. By moving PC's to back office locations it would be expected that
the physical distance between the PC's and the Servers that support them
would be very close compared to the complex cabling designs currently used.
This would allow me to design our network such that I have very clean
100/1000 Ethernet to these back office PC's while only needing 10 mbps to
the remote thin clients. Older equipment can then service the desktop
Ethernet requirements.
. By moving PC's to back office locations you greatly reduce the
energy requirements at the desktop, the heat generated in office spaces, and
the inherent ambient noise generated.
. From a security point of view. Thin clients don't have to have USB
ports, CD's or Floppy drives. Just keyboard, mouse, and video ports. This
GREATLY reduces the legal problems caused by employees loading illegal
software and the security risk associated with employees downloading
sensitive data to portable storage devices for theft of corporate data. (
Note: In researching thin clients so far all have had USB ports and almost
none have had CD's or Floppy drives. This still opens the door to those
pesky USB hard drives ... )
. By utilizing software such as VMWARE PC's can now be subdivided into
multiple Virtual PC's where 1 back office PC can support multiple desktops.
. One interesting variation of the VMWARE approach would be to use
Linux as the host operating system and XP as the client virtual operating
system of choice. It eliminates the requirement for the XP host license and
would reduce the overall costs associated with this approach.
. One potential downside to this approach: Every thin client will
consume one IP address as will every host. Using one to one mapping via
PC's or PC-Blades two IP addresses are consumed for each end user. Using
the VOS approach using a small PC with 3 VOS partitions you would consume 4
IP addresses for the host and 3 IP addresses for the thin clients. Using
WTS/Citrix you loose one IP address for each host but each host can support
a larger number of users. Depending on the number of PC's / Thin-Clients
supported this may force additional sub-nets in situations that are
currently below capacity.

And ... So far it looks like thin clients can be purchased for around $ 300.
Cheaper then the cost of some of fancy 'Factory proof' enclosures I've seen
over the years. Since the thin clients are sealed boxes with no fans shop
floor life expectancy should be excellent as long as they are not crushed by
high speed physical contact with steel objects. Toss in a "Virtually
Indestructible" keyboard and a monitor and I think you're in good shape no
matter what the environment.

Has anyone tried the VNC Ce.Net thin client mapped against a stand alone PC?

So far I've reviewed Wyse, HP, and NeoWare thin clients and am building a
MS-Access DB of all of the specs and pricing I've found. Still have another
4-6 vendors to review. If anyone is interested in the final review let me
know or if enough people are interested I'll just post it to the list.

Any feedback on any of this rambling info would be greatly
appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Todd Anderson




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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links