Truss me, I'm an engineer

For my fellow RCE fans.

A recent post by @utaylor

Where he specifically mentions the toll that Epicor’s seemingly never ending quest to break things that were working previously with every cloud update is having on his professional credibility.

Trust in the system is an essential element for success, and critical for getting people to use Epicor, and I mean really use it, to it’s fullest potential.

I was fortunate to learn about the importance of system trust early in my career. At my first job as a BA, in 2009, it was a small company but the owner fully understood the critical role system trust plays in the successful use of that system. We were not large enough to consider the use of an enterprise level ERP, but with software called ‘Stone Edge Order Manager’ and Access DBs and Macros, we were able to duct tape together a system that was able to maintain an order defect rate of < 2%.

During this development/transition to the new system, there came the phase, which was new to me at the time, but now I realize is a constant, all the time, everywhere, of anxiety related to adopting the new system. Specifically users giving up control of things they previously did themselves, to the system.

In response to this expressed anxiety, the owner would simply say ‘We have a system in place to manage that, we either need to trust it, or get rid of it’

Where does this anxiety come from?

Is it ego? Is it difficult to admit the system can do certain things better than you can?

Is it fear of being obviated? If I let the system do this thing, what will I do? What use will I have?

Maybe, but ultimately I think it boils down to how much people trust the system to do what it is meant to do.

I think most people will agree that it is a hard enough task to get a bug free system to perform reliably enough to convince everyone that it will work the way they expect, 100% of the time.

For those of us who have taken the leap to move to Kinetic SaaS, we are so far from operating in a bug free system I forget what it’s like at this point. Every new update introduces new things that I have to apologize for, work around, chips away at peoples trust in me, and by extension, the system I am trying to get people to use.

I get that updates can come with some unexpected consequences. This is not what we are living through right now. I have been doing this a long time and never in my life did I imagine I would be trying to advocate for a system where clicking the print button was a roll of the dice. I am running out of breath.

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Well said, and kindly too.

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My hit points are in the red too

ROI: never

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:100:

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I would turn that around.

Every new update introduces new things that I have to apologize for, work around, chips away at peoples trust in me the system, and by extension me, the person trying to support the user and drive change management, the hardest thing in business to do.

If they don’t trust the person they are immediately working with, they won’t truly listen to what you are trying to teach them. They will “listen” and then immediately revert back to what they were doing without giving the “system” or whatever you are trying to get them to change to a fair chance.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me…

With enough problems they lose all faith in the system, and they revert to workarounds and outside processes.

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When they lose faith in the system, the lines blur between what is a process issue and what is a system issue. And when it comes between blaming your people or blaming the system, blaming the system will always win out.

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And that’s when this statement becomes key…

Its just like any personal relationship, if there’s no trust, you’re better off walking away.

How long do we fight these issues before it is in the company’s best interests to find another solution (more stable, mutually beneficial relationship)? How long to we invest (time and money) into a solution that is hindering the future of the company?

The unnerving question is, once that pain threshold is met… will ownership view the system as the problem, or the administrator? Unfortunately, we’re easier to replace.

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I so feel this every day. It’s very hard to be an Epicor advocate at work anymore when every patch is a gamble of, “What broke this time?!” and find it hopefully before our users do and have a ticket logged or work on a solution underway.

I fear we’re quickly approaching that point. People dread every update and we’ve been on Kinetic UI for only 6 months.

That’s my fear too

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This is absolutely how I feel. Well put. I’m working on a project to get 6 companies within a group on Epicor. We went live with one of these companies in October and I’m having to sit in on meetings on how to retain employees who are about to quit because the system is so frustrating.

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With something so important for the functioning of a company, the risk to be an early adopter of something new is magnified. Every new version that is not a patch level will always introduce more bugs. We’ve had Epicor for 10 years now, and we’ve only done a handful of upgrades, and never when a new release came out, always a few patches in that should fix most of the issues.

Moving to the cloud where you’re forced to keep up with release cadence just imposes it on you. You’re the “beta tester”. Even if you have time to find all these issues, they will not fix them all before the release to production, and then you’ll either need work-arounds (which are always time wasting), or to suffer the consequences of the issue.

If you really can’t afford to be in this situation, then you have to pay to delay the release cadence. Hopefully by then the major things will be fixed, but you’re paying for the privilege of not having your systems messed up. It’s also arguable that the new features introduced every new version are even a benefit to you. I understand the need to keep up to date to fix issues, especially with security, but if the updates bring no value to you, then it’s just an expense.

While I understand where Nathan was coming from, and personally I think he’s one of the most competent people I’ve met, with the few interactions I had with him at Insights or when my support tickets have gone to him, there’s a growing resentment with the apparent lack of investment by Epicor to improve support. While you may be lucky to manage to get someone as good as Nathan handling your ticket, my experience is that the average support ticket as taken longer to resolve, and require a lot more effort on our part to even get it properly addressed.

The current trajectory of Epicor gives me no confidence for the future.

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As someone sitting on the sidelines of the Cloud, being On-Prem, I have often wondered how much of these issues (like the printing one) are not so much an issue with Kinetic but rather an inability to properly/quickly, assign/scale resources.

I have had a few WTF support cases (and have a few open currently) so I know that there are issues with Kinetic but TBH, I am testing 2025.2.12 right now for upgrade and there is not a lot that doesn’t work properly that I can find.

Don’t worry, your users will find all the problems the day you upgrade

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That will be on them as they have all had opportunity & instructions to spend a bit of time testing our customizations and workflows. Yes, On-Prem we have the benefit of taking our time to test things and making the move when we are ready vs when Epicor is, so perhaps that builds into the fact that we do not see that many show stopping issues that we can’t work around. Again though, we have yet to run into an issue that would stop us, from Classic in 2022.1 (or.2, I really can’t remember now) to 100% Browser-Kinetic 2024.1 and now 2024.1 to 2025.2, we have managed to mitigate the few actual issues we’ve found, or learned to live with them.

TBH, for this reason alone I am advocating/pushing for Enterprise level SaaS when we make the cloud move. The ability to control the upgrade so long as we are within 18 months of current is priceless IMHO.

Again, I am not saying it is perfect or that there are no issues, there are, but the show stopper ones I can think of from here off the top of my head (the printing one), I just wonder if those are not a failure to be as elastic as we would expect them to be vs kinetic itself.

Well Epicor has put a price on it. They didn’t have to, but they did.

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I agree with you, but the end of the day, you are usually the one stuck fixing the problem.

I’ll give some examples from our recent upgrade.

We ran our entire end-to-end processes with minimal issues. I find out yesterday that now you can’t “paste new” bank adjustments with a GL account set. Now I have to stop what I’m doing and write a BPM to revert to the old behavior.

Today I find out that our custom purchasing process can’t delete RFQs because RfqEntry.DeleteByID now throws a null reference exception. Why Epicor can’t have a unit test on this endpoint, I don’t know. Now I have to spend time rewriting this part of the code to use Update with the delete RowMod instead.

They are all minor issues, but they all stack up and make our users frustrated with the system. It makes me dread going through upgrades.

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While our initial cloud move seemingly went well, I’m losing hope with every passing minute. This Pilot Linux thing is an unmitigated disaster. We’re going live on 2025.2 at the end of next week. Some testing was done prior to 2/4 (when Epicor forced us to Linux without advance notification) but question if it was sufficient. Now we can’t fully test because critical pieces of code are failing. Add in the random outages and SSRS failures and it all just keeps piling on and on and on…it’s hard to be a cheerleader for this system anymore. And this kinda struck home hard today.

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Haven’t there been people who have reported that they have issues after accepting patches? I need to check, but don’t have the time right now.

This ^

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You’re right though, I don’t find the same issue on-prem. We have been chilling on 2024.2 on prem and I don’t see the same issues all the time. I read these threads all the time to watch out for stuff.

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To have your Pilot upgraded to something that doesn’t match your intended go-live environment is wicked. I am sorry you’re dealing with that.

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