Michael . Michael,
You're such a good source for details like these!
Your dissertation, even at the expense of your tendons, does a terrific job
of laying it out. Nicely done.
Didn't the concept of interpretive code in a production environment die like
30 years ago? Compilers were such a radical idea back when.
So is there no way to compile and store these routines to avoid having to
buy mega-PC's?
Most mfg shops I deal with would have issues with having to purchase ALL new
PCs for a software upgrade. Worse yet, most of them seem to be running on
PCs that are 3-6 years old. Not the kind of companies that typically
embrace NEW NEW NEW.
Thanks again - Great info.
Todd Anderson
_____
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Michael Barry
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:53 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] V8 performance
Gents,
Yes, Gb Ethernet on the client will help but only by reducing network
latency. There are a couple of constraining factors to improved network
performance affecting V8 performance. The first is IP packet conversion
overhead. If you look, even when trying to transfer a multi-gigabyte file
from the workstation to the server over a Gb Ethernet you will find that
your network performance is nowhere near full wire speed. The reason is
that the CPU will be tapped out trying to deal with the overhead of IP
traffic (particularly on Windows systems). You can alleviate the issue with
a TOE (TCP/IP Offload Engine) NIC that handles the overhead of IP and leaves
the CPU for other more productive activities. For the details see:
http://www.alacritech.com
There are a number of white papers and test cases that demonstrate the
benefit. Just as an interesting aside, you will also see a noticeable
improvement, particularly in latency, by going to Cat6 cabling. Even if you
just patch your servers to the switch, Cat6 makes a noticeable difference
for Gb Ethernet response. An added benefit of Cat6 is that the additional
shielding mitigates packet loss and, hence, packet recalls so in noisy
environments network performance is significantly improved. Several months
ago we replace all of our Cat5e with Cat6 and all of our workstations with
Gb adapters saw an immediate improvement in not only speed but also
stability.
The second issue with Gb Ethernet is bus plane limitations. If you put the
adapter on a PCI bus, the bus will limit the performance of the adapter,
especially if it is also attempting to deal with ancillary traffic from
other peripherals at the same time. So between bus limitations, IP traffic
overhead, and cabling performance, Gb Ethernet to the desktop will provide a
little more snap to the application response but not much (10-15%).
As Bob noted earlier, the real avenue to improve application response with
V8 is with the workstation CPU and disk access. The reason for this is
twofold. First, .NET requires that client code residing on the workstation
go through a JIT compiler on the first execution. That's why the code
executes slowly on the first execution and rapidly on the second. It gets
compiled and loaded into memory in its machine state for execution
subsequent times. This is why the amount of workstation memory is so
critical to V8 performance. The more memory, the more compiled code can be
cached into memory for subsequent access. It's also why the local CPU
throughput is so important. The speed of the initial load of a V8 module
will be significantly impacted by the speed with which the workstation can
compile the .NET CRL code so a fast CPU will make a huge difference for the
user experience. Second is that the rather bloated Infragistics UI
components that comprise the V8 interface take time to be retrieved from
local storage and processed. The faster the components can be loaded into
memory and compiled, the faster the user experience.
Ok, so what is the optimal network config for V8 performance? In an ideal
world, you would want to start with a dual processor dual core server with
enough ram to load the OS plus all of the remaining processes and the
Vantage DB. This would allow each OE10 Service its own thread on a
processor (DB, APP, http, uddi,file) and sufficient headroom to cache the
data into memory for each. If you wanted to add some additional capacity
for very little money you might want to through in a TOE NIC to reduce the
CPU overhead and get more from your server. At the wire level, you would
want to run Cat6 cable, Gb Switch and have a Gb to the desktop
infrastructure. This would guarantee the best server performance for your
V8 implementation from the server to the desktop. On the desktop, you would
be best served by all the P4, Athlon, Opteron you could reasonably afford
plus 1.5 to 2 GB of RAM. Now, here's the kicker, you will need an
inexpensive, semi-involatile, RAM disk application to load the V8
workstation client into. Here's a good source:
http://www.cenatek.com/product_ramdisk.cfm
Install the V8 client into the RAM partition on the workstation and you will
have the best performance possible from a non-emulated desktop you can
achieve...
Whew...I think I have carpel tunnel....
Michael
Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
http://www.aspacia.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
pjw@...
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:53 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] V8 performance
Todd,
You are correct, gb Ethernet on the client does help.
Also programs are stored on the client.
Other Notes:
I think its like 1) the first time you run/load a program it does some
unpacking or whatever.
2) the second time you run it should be the normal load speed.
3) cache the program in memory and you should have it with in a couple of
seconds.
4) You can create a favorites list that is autoloaded when you log in to
preload cached forms.
5) You can also right click on the Vantage Icon in the icon tray while
autoloading and have vantage stop where it's at in the autoload process.
Are we having fun yet.
Patrick
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 9:12 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] V8 performance
Dick,
If I was a LITTLE less stupid life would be SO much easier to understand .
The performance numbers you posted don't appear to have jack to do with the
CPU or RAM performance. Looks more like a bandwidth issue.
Yes, I suppose if you had 10-gig network speed and some of the new 50,000
rpm hard drives on your server and clients you could push the data fast
enough .
Still, the last time I saw numbers like these the issue was that silly full
color splash screen on V4. Simply replacing it with a minimal black and
white splash screen shaved 50% off of the start up time.
Since your 2nd try numbers are very workable that leads me to believe that
the issue is preloading the cache files on the clients on installation.
Sort of like caching the V4 schema on the local hard drives.
Just for tricks . can you copy the entire Vantage folder from the server to
the client PC and doctor your startup in V8 so the program runs locally with
the DB pointed at the server?
Not that I think this is a reasonable real world situation . I'm just
curious what happens to speed if the fun stuff is local.
Also, can you check physical/virtual memory on a 1 gig ram pc --- before you
start V8 --- and then after running the speed test listed below ++ before
you close V8?
How much of this junk is being loaded into physical memory?
Have you had a chance to watch your server NIC performance while running
these tests?
Curious . if your first and second try numbers were equal it would be a
completely different puzzle.
Todd Anderson
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
_____
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
on the web.
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You're such a good source for details like these!
Your dissertation, even at the expense of your tendons, does a terrific job
of laying it out. Nicely done.
Didn't the concept of interpretive code in a production environment die like
30 years ago? Compilers were such a radical idea back when.
So is there no way to compile and store these routines to avoid having to
buy mega-PC's?
Most mfg shops I deal with would have issues with having to purchase ALL new
PCs for a software upgrade. Worse yet, most of them seem to be running on
PCs that are 3-6 years old. Not the kind of companies that typically
embrace NEW NEW NEW.
Thanks again - Great info.
Todd Anderson
_____
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Michael Barry
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:53 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] V8 performance
Gents,
Yes, Gb Ethernet on the client will help but only by reducing network
latency. There are a couple of constraining factors to improved network
performance affecting V8 performance. The first is IP packet conversion
overhead. If you look, even when trying to transfer a multi-gigabyte file
from the workstation to the server over a Gb Ethernet you will find that
your network performance is nowhere near full wire speed. The reason is
that the CPU will be tapped out trying to deal with the overhead of IP
traffic (particularly on Windows systems). You can alleviate the issue with
a TOE (TCP/IP Offload Engine) NIC that handles the overhead of IP and leaves
the CPU for other more productive activities. For the details see:
http://www.alacritech.com
There are a number of white papers and test cases that demonstrate the
benefit. Just as an interesting aside, you will also see a noticeable
improvement, particularly in latency, by going to Cat6 cabling. Even if you
just patch your servers to the switch, Cat6 makes a noticeable difference
for Gb Ethernet response. An added benefit of Cat6 is that the additional
shielding mitigates packet loss and, hence, packet recalls so in noisy
environments network performance is significantly improved. Several months
ago we replace all of our Cat5e with Cat6 and all of our workstations with
Gb adapters saw an immediate improvement in not only speed but also
stability.
The second issue with Gb Ethernet is bus plane limitations. If you put the
adapter on a PCI bus, the bus will limit the performance of the adapter,
especially if it is also attempting to deal with ancillary traffic from
other peripherals at the same time. So between bus limitations, IP traffic
overhead, and cabling performance, Gb Ethernet to the desktop will provide a
little more snap to the application response but not much (10-15%).
As Bob noted earlier, the real avenue to improve application response with
V8 is with the workstation CPU and disk access. The reason for this is
twofold. First, .NET requires that client code residing on the workstation
go through a JIT compiler on the first execution. That's why the code
executes slowly on the first execution and rapidly on the second. It gets
compiled and loaded into memory in its machine state for execution
subsequent times. This is why the amount of workstation memory is so
critical to V8 performance. The more memory, the more compiled code can be
cached into memory for subsequent access. It's also why the local CPU
throughput is so important. The speed of the initial load of a V8 module
will be significantly impacted by the speed with which the workstation can
compile the .NET CRL code so a fast CPU will make a huge difference for the
user experience. Second is that the rather bloated Infragistics UI
components that comprise the V8 interface take time to be retrieved from
local storage and processed. The faster the components can be loaded into
memory and compiled, the faster the user experience.
Ok, so what is the optimal network config for V8 performance? In an ideal
world, you would want to start with a dual processor dual core server with
enough ram to load the OS plus all of the remaining processes and the
Vantage DB. This would allow each OE10 Service its own thread on a
processor (DB, APP, http, uddi,file) and sufficient headroom to cache the
data into memory for each. If you wanted to add some additional capacity
for very little money you might want to through in a TOE NIC to reduce the
CPU overhead and get more from your server. At the wire level, you would
want to run Cat6 cable, Gb Switch and have a Gb to the desktop
infrastructure. This would guarantee the best server performance for your
V8 implementation from the server to the desktop. On the desktop, you would
be best served by all the P4, Athlon, Opteron you could reasonably afford
plus 1.5 to 2 GB of RAM. Now, here's the kicker, you will need an
inexpensive, semi-involatile, RAM disk application to load the V8
workstation client into. Here's a good source:
http://www.cenatek.com/product_ramdisk.cfm
Install the V8 client into the RAM partition on the workstation and you will
have the best performance possible from a non-emulated desktop you can
achieve...
Whew...I think I have carpel tunnel....
Michael
Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
http://www.aspacia.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
pjw@...
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:53 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] V8 performance
Todd,
You are correct, gb Ethernet on the client does help.
Also programs are stored on the client.
Other Notes:
I think its like 1) the first time you run/load a program it does some
unpacking or whatever.
2) the second time you run it should be the normal load speed.
3) cache the program in memory and you should have it with in a couple of
seconds.
4) You can create a favorites list that is autoloaded when you log in to
preload cached forms.
5) You can also right click on the Vantage Icon in the icon tray while
autoloading and have vantage stop where it's at in the autoload process.
Are we having fun yet.
Patrick
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 9:12 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] V8 performance
Dick,
If I was a LITTLE less stupid life would be SO much easier to understand .
The performance numbers you posted don't appear to have jack to do with the
CPU or RAM performance. Looks more like a bandwidth issue.
Yes, I suppose if you had 10-gig network speed and some of the new 50,000
rpm hard drives on your server and clients you could push the data fast
enough .
Still, the last time I saw numbers like these the issue was that silly full
color splash screen on V4. Simply replacing it with a minimal black and
white splash screen shaved 50% off of the start up time.
Since your 2nd try numbers are very workable that leads me to believe that
the issue is preloading the cache files on the clients on installation.
Sort of like caching the V4 schema on the local hard drives.
Just for tricks . can you copy the entire Vantage folder from the server to
the client PC and doctor your startup in V8 so the program runs locally with
the DB pointed at the server?
Not that I think this is a reasonable real world situation . I'm just
curious what happens to speed if the fun stuff is local.
Also, can you check physical/virtual memory on a 1 gig ram pc --- before you
start V8 --- and then after running the speed test listed below ++ before
you close V8?
How much of this junk is being loaded into physical memory?
Have you had a chance to watch your server NIC performance while running
these tests?
Curious . if your first and second try numbers were equal it would be a
completely different puzzle.
Todd Anderson
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
_____
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
on the web.
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]