Michael I agree 100% and posted a similar sentiment in an off-list sub-conversation.
But the thought occurs.....I am a "reference site". Have been for many years. For the most part I am very happy with Vantage and can live with a few rough spots. If I (or rather my employer) wanted a system perfectly adapted to our needs I would hire a staff of programmers and start writing one (been there, done that). But when I am answering questions for a potential buyer they get my 100% unvarnished opinion, warts and all. I don't do it because of the "freebies" from Epicor but rather to see sites like ours find the right system. Some buy, some don't. The benefit to us as a user is the financial strength of Epicor - for we are all "stakeholders" if not shareholders.
So...all you other reference sites;
1. Adivse the potential customers of enhancements you would like to see, if they agree they are in the perfect position to apply buyer leverage.
2. Advise the Epicor Account Rep involved of your feedback to their potential customer and if that customer was receptive to your desire for that enhancement. If they start hearing specific items over and over from the prospects then Marketing might catch on.
Just an idea for an additional avenue of influence.
BTW...more than once a prospect has asked me if Epicor "listens" to existing customer needs. Lately I've cut Epicor some slack and passed it off as 8.0 distraction. That may change depending on how many user initiated enhancements are in the next release.
-Todd C.
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Michael Barry
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:10 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] EUG / enhancement requests
Ok, not to put a Machiavellian spin on this thread or anything, but the
economics just don't support the existing user base for influencing the
direction of Epicor product development. Since they are a publicly traded
company, Epicor is driven by a single economic principle - maximizing
shareholder value, period. The market gauges value based on quarter to
quarter revenue and earnings growth. Because Epicor is a vertical market
software provider, they have two primary sources of revenue; new product
sales including implementation services revenue and product maintenance and
support revenue.
The recurring maintenance revenue stream supports ongoing expenses and
product development as well as providing a predictable revenue base that the
market interprets as a foundation for long term stability but adds nothing
to company revenue growth. Therein lays the problem for the existing
customer base. Since the ongoing revenues provided by the existing
customers do not contribute to the market's value equation, it does not
provide an economic incentive for the company to develop their product in
accordance with the needs of their existing customers. Rather, Epicor is
economically incented to invest its development resources toward product
enhancements that directly affect their growth potential and that lies
solely in new sales.
The only economically meaningful ways for the existing customer base to
influence product development are, one, to discontinue providing the ongoing
revenue in mass or, two, to become equity participants in the company. One
can only imagine the impact on product development the existing customer
base would have if they simultaneously withheld their annual maintenance
fees and used the available funds to purchase Epicor stock. The infighting
amongst the Epicor product community as evidenced by the differing
philosophies of the EUG and the Vantage onelist, for example, preclude the
unanimity of such a course of action but it still makes for a pleasant
fantasy none the less.
All of this, unfortunately, demonstrates that, in the end, it really doesn't
matter where a product enhancement list is hosted. It can be at Yahoo, on
Epicor's Clientele server or on George's iPod but if it doesn't directly
contribute to improving the potential for new product sales it will be
treated like the kid with a sibilance on an American Idol tryout.
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Frank Zeigafuse
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:53 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] EUG / enhancement requests
We are going of maintenance also.
Innovative Office Products, Inc.
Frank Zeigafuse
General Manager
610-559-6369
fzeigafuse@...
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Darren Mann
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:34 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] EUG / enhancement requests
7 years of dealing with Epicor.
It is my feeling that in the past the companies that Epicor listens to for
requests are usually the bigger $$$ companies. Let's be realistic, money
talks! The problem with that is that larger companies do business entirely
different than us little guys. Modules become cumbersome and lose focus. We
chose to discontinue maintenance since none of our requests for enhancements
ever made the cut. Why spend the money annually on updates that aren't to
your benefit??? What we have now is a product our employees are familiar
with and we have learned to deal with it's downfalls. Every update just
seemed to cause more problems than benefits. I'm sure if more people
started to pull out of maintenance maybe something would change but until
Epicor realizes that they have other companies that need to be heard they
will NOT act on enhancements. They need to make the program more robust and
applicable to everyone. At least fix the bugs. So basically I am seconding
Todd's comments..it's pointless to track enhancement requests here...
Darren Mann
IT Manager
Miller Products Co.
1015 N. Main St.
Osceola, IA 50213
Ph. 641-342-2103
Fax 641-342-3222
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:09 AM
To: millerpr@...
Subject: [Vantage] EUG / enhancement requests
Having now spent something like 8 years working with Vantage and EPICOR I'd
like to toss out this thought.
There is one and ONLY one "Official" channel for enhancement requests
regarding Vantage and that is EPICOR itself.
Not this list, nor any other list. It would be a pointless waste of time
for any third party organization to create and maintain an enhancement
request database for Vantage.
EPICOR . HAS . an enhancement/bug database for Vantage. Every time you call
in and request something it is supposed to be entered into that database.
The real issue here is the mechanism itself, not who controls it.
EPICOR
will ALWAYS control what enhancements are added to Vantage since it is,
after all, THEIR product.
About 8 years ago the Midwest Users Group tried to influence the enhancement
mechanism within EPICOR. At the time we asked EPICOR what determined
which
enhancements actually made it into new releases. At the time we were told
that the "Number of hits" on an enhancement determined what was considered.
In other words, how many user companies requested that specific enhancement?
Ok, easy enough, as a user's group we printed off about 100 enhancements
that we knew about and printed them one per page listing the EPICOR
enhancement number, the description, and a spot where user companies could
fill in their company name, site ID, and a block where they could add notes.
Then, just for fun, we faxed the entire stack to every company in the
Midwest user's group. ( back before email
) Each user company then went through the stack and pulled the ones they
agreed with, filled them out, and then faxed them into EPICOR to be added to
the database. A week or so later I got a call from EPICOR wanting to know
who's bright idea it was to fax them several feet of faxes? Furthermore,
what exactly did we expect them to do with them since they didn't have
anyone who even had the time to deal with a few feet of faxes . Oh well, it
seemed like a good idea.
The answer here is not for us, or anyone else, to create an enhancement
database for Vantage.
What do you folks really want out of this process and why isn't EPICOR's
enhancement process getting the job done?
Past complaints have been:
* Is it a bug or an enhancement? Funny but true. Just because
the
product doesn't work the way you think it should doesn't make it a bug.
On the other hand 2 + 2 = 5 situations ARE bugs.
* How can we, as users, see the current list of enhancements and
bugs
in a readable format so we can see what's been recorded and what the status
is?
* If we call in to request an enhancement that a specific screen
should be blue instead of white and the enhancement is written up that we
would like it to be in Japanese . how can we spot these and get the correct
enhancement written up?
* How many companies have voted for a request? Can we easily add
to
the list?
* Could we take a day on the list to discuss one module like CRM
with
the developers to work up a list of suggestions?
* Etc etc.
Seriously, if we're going to discuss this . what is wrong with the current
program at EPICOR and how would you folks like to see it changed?
On some level I suspect this comes down to a desire to help make the product
better so it better meets our needs running up against the feeling that
EPICOR is not listening and/or that you're voices are not being heard.
So what should EPICOR do differently to make sure that you feel like you do
have a voice in the process?
Todd Anderson
_____
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Todd Caughey
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:40 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage 8
This would be great as well as convenient for us YahooGroup members but
would it be effective?
Not to revive an issue that was beat to death once before but wasn't the
Epicor User Group (EUG) supposed to be the "official" channel for submitting
and voting on enhancement requests (for EUG members anyway).
I thought I had heard something about Epicor's desire to deal with only one
request list and EUG was it. A subtle bit of arm twisting to join EUG -
otherwise you have no voice.
Could a member of EUG please let the rest of us non-members know if they
have an enhancement request process and/or if any actual "voting" has been
done relative to the next release level of Vantage?
Thanks,
-Todd C.
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
_____
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
* Visit your group " vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But the thought occurs.....I am a "reference site". Have been for many years. For the most part I am very happy with Vantage and can live with a few rough spots. If I (or rather my employer) wanted a system perfectly adapted to our needs I would hire a staff of programmers and start writing one (been there, done that). But when I am answering questions for a potential buyer they get my 100% unvarnished opinion, warts and all. I don't do it because of the "freebies" from Epicor but rather to see sites like ours find the right system. Some buy, some don't. The benefit to us as a user is the financial strength of Epicor - for we are all "stakeholders" if not shareholders.
So...all you other reference sites;
1. Adivse the potential customers of enhancements you would like to see, if they agree they are in the perfect position to apply buyer leverage.
2. Advise the Epicor Account Rep involved of your feedback to their potential customer and if that customer was receptive to your desire for that enhancement. If they start hearing specific items over and over from the prospects then Marketing might catch on.
Just an idea for an additional avenue of influence.
BTW...more than once a prospect has asked me if Epicor "listens" to existing customer needs. Lately I've cut Epicor some slack and passed it off as 8.0 distraction. That may change depending on how many user initiated enhancements are in the next release.
-Todd C.
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Michael Barry
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:10 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] EUG / enhancement requests
Ok, not to put a Machiavellian spin on this thread or anything, but the
economics just don't support the existing user base for influencing the
direction of Epicor product development. Since they are a publicly traded
company, Epicor is driven by a single economic principle - maximizing
shareholder value, period. The market gauges value based on quarter to
quarter revenue and earnings growth. Because Epicor is a vertical market
software provider, they have two primary sources of revenue; new product
sales including implementation services revenue and product maintenance and
support revenue.
The recurring maintenance revenue stream supports ongoing expenses and
product development as well as providing a predictable revenue base that the
market interprets as a foundation for long term stability but adds nothing
to company revenue growth. Therein lays the problem for the existing
customer base. Since the ongoing revenues provided by the existing
customers do not contribute to the market's value equation, it does not
provide an economic incentive for the company to develop their product in
accordance with the needs of their existing customers. Rather, Epicor is
economically incented to invest its development resources toward product
enhancements that directly affect their growth potential and that lies
solely in new sales.
The only economically meaningful ways for the existing customer base to
influence product development are, one, to discontinue providing the ongoing
revenue in mass or, two, to become equity participants in the company. One
can only imagine the impact on product development the existing customer
base would have if they simultaneously withheld their annual maintenance
fees and used the available funds to purchase Epicor stock. The infighting
amongst the Epicor product community as evidenced by the differing
philosophies of the EUG and the Vantage onelist, for example, preclude the
unanimity of such a course of action but it still makes for a pleasant
fantasy none the less.
All of this, unfortunately, demonstrates that, in the end, it really doesn't
matter where a product enhancement list is hosted. It can be at Yahoo, on
Epicor's Clientele server or on George's iPod but if it doesn't directly
contribute to improving the potential for new product sales it will be
treated like the kid with a sibilance on an American Idol tryout.
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Frank Zeigafuse
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:53 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] EUG / enhancement requests
We are going of maintenance also.
Innovative Office Products, Inc.
Frank Zeigafuse
General Manager
610-559-6369
fzeigafuse@...
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Darren Mann
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:34 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] EUG / enhancement requests
7 years of dealing with Epicor.
It is my feeling that in the past the companies that Epicor listens to for
requests are usually the bigger $$$ companies. Let's be realistic, money
talks! The problem with that is that larger companies do business entirely
different than us little guys. Modules become cumbersome and lose focus. We
chose to discontinue maintenance since none of our requests for enhancements
ever made the cut. Why spend the money annually on updates that aren't to
your benefit??? What we have now is a product our employees are familiar
with and we have learned to deal with it's downfalls. Every update just
seemed to cause more problems than benefits. I'm sure if more people
started to pull out of maintenance maybe something would change but until
Epicor realizes that they have other companies that need to be heard they
will NOT act on enhancements. They need to make the program more robust and
applicable to everyone. At least fix the bugs. So basically I am seconding
Todd's comments..it's pointless to track enhancement requests here...
Darren Mann
IT Manager
Miller Products Co.
1015 N. Main St.
Osceola, IA 50213
Ph. 641-342-2103
Fax 641-342-3222
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Todd Anderson
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:09 AM
To: millerpr@...
Subject: [Vantage] EUG / enhancement requests
Having now spent something like 8 years working with Vantage and EPICOR I'd
like to toss out this thought.
There is one and ONLY one "Official" channel for enhancement requests
regarding Vantage and that is EPICOR itself.
Not this list, nor any other list. It would be a pointless waste of time
for any third party organization to create and maintain an enhancement
request database for Vantage.
EPICOR . HAS . an enhancement/bug database for Vantage. Every time you call
in and request something it is supposed to be entered into that database.
The real issue here is the mechanism itself, not who controls it.
EPICOR
will ALWAYS control what enhancements are added to Vantage since it is,
after all, THEIR product.
About 8 years ago the Midwest Users Group tried to influence the enhancement
mechanism within EPICOR. At the time we asked EPICOR what determined
which
enhancements actually made it into new releases. At the time we were told
that the "Number of hits" on an enhancement determined what was considered.
In other words, how many user companies requested that specific enhancement?
Ok, easy enough, as a user's group we printed off about 100 enhancements
that we knew about and printed them one per page listing the EPICOR
enhancement number, the description, and a spot where user companies could
fill in their company name, site ID, and a block where they could add notes.
Then, just for fun, we faxed the entire stack to every company in the
Midwest user's group. ( back before email
) Each user company then went through the stack and pulled the ones they
agreed with, filled them out, and then faxed them into EPICOR to be added to
the database. A week or so later I got a call from EPICOR wanting to know
who's bright idea it was to fax them several feet of faxes? Furthermore,
what exactly did we expect them to do with them since they didn't have
anyone who even had the time to deal with a few feet of faxes . Oh well, it
seemed like a good idea.
The answer here is not for us, or anyone else, to create an enhancement
database for Vantage.
What do you folks really want out of this process and why isn't EPICOR's
enhancement process getting the job done?
Past complaints have been:
* Is it a bug or an enhancement? Funny but true. Just because
the
product doesn't work the way you think it should doesn't make it a bug.
On the other hand 2 + 2 = 5 situations ARE bugs.
* How can we, as users, see the current list of enhancements and
bugs
in a readable format so we can see what's been recorded and what the status
is?
* If we call in to request an enhancement that a specific screen
should be blue instead of white and the enhancement is written up that we
would like it to be in Japanese . how can we spot these and get the correct
enhancement written up?
* How many companies have voted for a request? Can we easily add
to
the list?
* Could we take a day on the list to discuss one module like CRM
with
the developers to work up a list of suggestions?
* Etc etc.
Seriously, if we're going to discuss this . what is wrong with the current
program at EPICOR and how would you folks like to see it changed?
On some level I suspect this comes down to a desire to help make the product
better so it better meets our needs running up against the feeling that
EPICOR is not listening and/or that you're voices are not being heard.
So what should EPICOR do differently to make sure that you feel like you do
have a voice in the process?
Todd Anderson
_____
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Todd Caughey
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:40 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage 8
This would be great as well as convenient for us YahooGroup members but
would it be effective?
Not to revive an issue that was beat to death once before but wasn't the
Epicor User Group (EUG) supposed to be the "official" channel for submitting
and voting on enhancement requests (for EUG members anyway).
I thought I had heard something about Epicor's desire to deal with only one
request list and EUG was it. A subtle bit of arm twisting to join EUG -
otherwise you have no voice.
Could a member of EUG please let the rest of us non-members know if they
have an enhancement request process and/or if any actual "voting" has been
done relative to the next release level of Vantage?
Thanks,
-Todd C.
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
_____
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
* Visit your group " vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]