Change Logs and deleted records

Todd,

"It would be nice ..." doesn't satisfy GAAP. Otherwise we all might as
well be using QuickBooks. On the db side, referential integrity
requires that header keys (SO #) should not be reused. Perhaps the way
Epicor implemented change logs is flawed, but in no way do GAAP and
referential integrity preclude them or each other.

have fun,
john


Todd Caughey wrote:
> It would be nice to document that something occured but they (Epicor)
> are in a bind with things like Codd's rules
I recently found out that in 6.10, lines that are deleted from a
Purchase Order are also removed from the Change Log. It is highly
unusual for us to delete a PO Line, but a new buyer did for some
reason. Later, the vendor shipped against the original line and
Receiving had nothing to receive against. After a quick check on
the PO Change Log, I was confident this was a vendor issue. When
the vendor faxed back the original PO, I realize that the line in
question was not listed at all in the change log. (Fortunately, the
parts were very inexpensive.)

I have since played around in our Sandbox DB and discovered that
deleteing a PO Line will remove all referenes to the line from the
Change Log. I incorrectly assumed that there would be a "deleted"
note. Is this a common feature of all the change logs? Our
standard practice is to not delete records, so ideally the Change
Log would track when this happened.


Michael Randolph
Purchasing Manager
American Magnetics, Inc.
Sales Orders behave the same way. We had a Sales Order Pick List
printed in the warehouse, the shipping department picked the parts and
tried to create a Packing Slip and the order no longer existed. It
obviously existed at one point, but then gone without a trace (or a
trail). Nobody owned-up to deleting the order. I have since learned
that if you set the option to "Book Sales Orders", an audit trail will
exist in the Booking Detail table. I am not aware of an equivalent for
Purchase Orders.

Peter Dunbar
Halm Industries Co., Inc.
The delete trigger on the order header - order detail has the wonderful
feature of deleting any activity in the change log table.





Bob Booth

Marinoware



_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of halm180
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:03 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records



Sales Orders behave the same way. We had a Sales Order Pick List
printed in the warehouse, the shipping department picked the parts and
tried to create a Packing Slip and the order no longer existed. It
obviously existed at one point, but then gone without a trace (or a
trail). Nobody owned-up to deleting the order. I have since learned
that if you set the option to "Book Sales Orders", an audit trail will
exist in the Booking Detail table. I am not aware of an equivalent for
Purchase Orders.

Peter Dunbar
Halm Industries Co., Inc.




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
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and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
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<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's dumb!

Frank Zeigafuse
Innovative Office Products
General Manager
Direct Phone: 610-559-6369
Email: fzeigafuse@...



-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Booth [mailto:bbooth@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:13 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


The delete trigger on the order header - order detail has the wonderful
feature of deleting any activity in the change log table.





Bob Booth

Marinoware



_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
halm180
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:03 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records



Sales Orders behave the same way. We had a Sales Order Pick List
printed in the warehouse, the shipping department picked the parts and
tried to create a Packing Slip and the order no longer existed. It
obviously existed at one point, but then gone without a trace (or a
trail). Nobody owned-up to deleting the order. I have since learned
that if you set the option to "Book Sales Orders", an audit trail will
exist in the Booking Detail table. I am not aware of an equivalent for
Purchase Orders.

Peter Dunbar
Halm Industries Co., Inc.




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Hi Group

I logged a call against this in January and received an explanation that it was designed this way, as they were worrried they would confuse users!!!

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of halm180
Sent: 24 May 2005 14:03
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Sales Orders behave the same way. We had a Sales Order Pick List
printed in the warehouse, the shipping department picked the parts and
tried to create a Packing Slip and the order no longer existed. It
obviously existed at one point, but then gone without a trace (or a
trail). Nobody owned-up to deleting the order. I have since learned
that if you set the option to "Book Sales Orders", an audit trail will
exist in the Booking Detail table. I am not aware of an equivalent for
Purchase Orders.

Peter Dunbar
Halm Industries Co., Inc.




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That is a bs answer. What do they think an audit trail is! Am sure this
complies with Sarbanes - Oxley not. That remark is even dumber. They
really need to buy a clue. Now I am mad.

Frank Zeigafuse
Innovative Office Products
General Manager
Direct Phone: 610-559-6369
Email: fzeigafuse@...



-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Parfrey [mailto:garyp@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:45 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Hi Group

I logged a call against this in January and received an explanation that it
was designed this way, as they were worrried they would confuse users!!!

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
halm180
Sent: 24 May 2005 14:03
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Sales Orders behave the same way. We had a Sales Order Pick List
printed in the warehouse, the shipping department picked the parts and
tried to create a Packing Slip and the order no longer existed. It
obviously existed at one point, but then gone without a trace (or a
trail). Nobody owned-up to deleting the order. I have since learned
that if you set the option to "Book Sales Orders", an audit trail will
exist in the Booking Detail table. I am not aware of an equivalent for
Purchase Orders.

Peter Dunbar
Halm Industries Co., Inc.




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
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Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
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I have not played with SO's in so long and don't use it everyday but if you create a new SO (with automatically assigned SO # ) and line and then ooops....already done this one so you delete the line and SO does it not re-use the SO number if another has not already been created since then with a higher number? If so then if another different SO is created re-using that number the change log info from the first version would no longer apply - or worse...you would have two "record created" logs and this would indeed be confusing.

A better test for this (in a test DB) might be to create one SO, then another, then delete the first (assuming the SO # would not be re-usable) and then see if the change log info has been deleted.

The alternative in the system design would be to not allow SO # reuse even if an SO has been completely backed out but even then you would have a change log key pointing to a non-existant record - a sort of orphan record situation. In which case the only way to resolve is to never allow an SO to be really deleted and simply flag the record as "deleted".

-Todd C.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Zeigafuse [mailto:fzeigafuse@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:08 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


That is a bs answer. What do they think an audit trail is! Am sure this
complies with Sarbanes - Oxley not. That remark is even dumber. They
really need to buy a clue. Now I am mad.

Frank Zeigafuse
Innovative Office Products
General Manager
Direct Phone: 610-559-6369
Email: fzeigafuse@...



-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Parfrey [mailto:garyp@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:45 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Hi Group

I logged a call against this in January and received an explanation that it
was designed this way, as they were worrried they would confuse users!!!

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
halm180
Sent: 24 May 2005 14:03
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Sales Orders behave the same way. We had a Sales Order Pick List
printed in the warehouse, the shipping department picked the parts and
tried to create a Packing Slip and the order no longer existed. It
obviously existed at one point, but then gone without a trace (or a
trail). Nobody owned-up to deleting the order. I have since learned
that if you set the option to "Book Sales Orders", an audit trail will
exist in the Booking Detail table. I am not aware of an equivalent for
Purchase Orders.

Peter Dunbar
Halm Industries Co., Inc.




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links










Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Todd

I agree to a point, but you do have the history in chronological order
even if it no longer applies to that order.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Todd Caughey
Sent: 24 May 2005 19:30
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


I have not played with SO's in so long and don't use it everyday but if
you create a new SO (with automatically assigned SO # ) and line and
then ooops....already done this one so you delete the line and SO does
it not re-use the SO number if another has not already been created
since then with a higher number? If so then if another different SO is
created re-using that number the change log info from the first version
would no longer apply - or worse...you would have two "record created"
logs and this would indeed be confusing.

A better test for this (in a test DB) might be to create one SO, then
another, then delete the first (assuming the SO # would not be
re-usable) and then see if the change log info has been deleted.

The alternative in the system design would be to not allow SO # reuse
even if an SO has been completely backed out but even then you would
have a change log key pointing to a non-existant record - a sort of
orphan record situation. In which case the only way to resolve is to
never allow an SO to be really deleted and simply flag the record as
"deleted".

-Todd C.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Zeigafuse [mailto:fzeigafuse@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:08 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


That is a bs answer. What do they think an audit trail is! Am sure
this
complies with Sarbanes - Oxley not. That remark is even dumber. They
really need to buy a clue. Now I am mad.

Frank Zeigafuse
Innovative Office Products
General Manager
Direct Phone: 610-559-6369
Email: fzeigafuse@...



-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Parfrey [mailto:garyp@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:45 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Hi Group

I logged a call against this in January and received an explanation that
it
was designed this way, as they were worrried they would confuse users!!!

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of
halm180
Sent: 24 May 2005 14:03
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Sales Orders behave the same way. We had a Sales Order Pick List
printed in the warehouse, the shipping department picked the parts and
tried to create a Packing Slip and the order no longer existed. It
obviously existed at one point, but then gone without a trace (or a
trail). Nobody owned-up to deleting the order. I have since learned
that if you set the option to "Book Sales Orders", an audit trail will
exist in the Booking Detail table. I am not aware of an equivalent for
Purchase Orders.

Peter Dunbar
Halm Industries Co., Inc.




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
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and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
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Yahoo! Groups Links










Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
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and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It would be nice to document that something occured but they (Epicor) are in a bind with things like Codd's rules ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd%27s_12_rules ) specifically number 2 and 10 (no SO to link to from the change log record -and/or- duplicate records for the same SO). I think the only way to satisfy the audit trail needs would be to never really delete a SO and instead leave it intact but disabled. Adding change logs seriously complicated referential integrity in the business logic due to more references to records that should prevent their deletion. Can't have it both ways and maintain integrity.
-Todd C.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Parfrey [mailto:garyp@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:36 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Hi Todd

I agree to a point, but you do have the history in chronological order
even if it no longer applies to that order.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Todd Caughey
Sent: 24 May 2005 19:30
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


I have not played with SO's in so long and don't use it everyday but if
you create a new SO (with automatically assigned SO # ) and line and
then ooops....already done this one so you delete the line and SO does
it not re-use the SO number if another has not already been created
since then with a higher number? If so then if another different SO is
created re-using that number the change log info from the first version
would no longer apply - or worse...you would have two "record created"
logs and this would indeed be confusing.

A better test for this (in a test DB) might be to create one SO, then
another, then delete the first (assuming the SO # would not be
re-usable) and then see if the change log info has been deleted.

The alternative in the system design would be to not allow SO # reuse
even if an SO has been completely backed out but even then you would
have a change log key pointing to a non-existant record - a sort of
orphan record situation. In which case the only way to resolve is to
never allow an SO to be really deleted and simply flag the record as
"deleted".

-Todd C.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Zeigafuse [mailto:fzeigafuse@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:08 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


That is a bs answer. What do they think an audit trail is! Am sure
this
complies with Sarbanes - Oxley not. That remark is even dumber. They
really need to buy a clue. Now I am mad.

Frank Zeigafuse
Innovative Office Products
General Manager
Direct Phone: 610-559-6369
Email: fzeigafuse@...



-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Parfrey [mailto:garyp@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:45 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Hi Group

I logged a call against this in January and received an explanation that
it
was designed this way, as they were worrried they would confuse users!!!

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of
halm180
Sent: 24 May 2005 14:03
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Sales Orders behave the same way. We had a Sales Order Pick List
printed in the warehouse, the shipping department picked the parts and
tried to create a Packing Slip and the order no longer existed. It
obviously existed at one point, but then gone without a trace (or a
trail). Nobody owned-up to deleting the order. I have since learned
that if you set the option to "Book Sales Orders", an audit trail will
exist in the Booking Detail table. I am not aware of an equivalent for
Purchase Orders.

Peter Dunbar
Halm Industries Co., Inc.




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



_____

Yahoo! Groups Links


* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/


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It would be nice to document that something occured but they (Epicor) are in a bind with things like Codd's rules ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd%27s_12_rules ) specifically number 2 and 10 (no SO to link to from the change log record -and/or- duplicate records for the same SO). I think the only way to satisfy the audit trail needs would be to never really delete a SO and instead leave it intact but disabled. Adding change logs seriously complicated referential integrity in the business logic due to more references to records that should prevent their deletion. Can't have it both ways and maintain integrity.
-Todd C.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Parfrey [mailto:garyp@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:36 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Hi Todd

I agree to a point, but you do have the history in chronological order
even if it no longer applies to that order.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Todd Caughey
Sent: 24 May 2005 19:30
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


I have not played with SO's in so long and don't use it everyday but if
you create a new SO (with automatically assigned SO # ) and line and
then ooops....already done this one so you delete the line and SO does
it not re-use the SO number if another has not already been created
since then with a higher number? If so then if another different SO is
created re-using that number the change log info from the first version
would no longer apply - or worse...you would have two "record created"
logs and this would indeed be confusing.

A better test for this (in a test DB) might be to create one SO, then
another, then delete the first (assuming the SO # would not be
re-usable) and then see if the change log info has been deleted.

The alternative in the system design would be to not allow SO # reuse
even if an SO has been completely backed out but even then you would
have a change log key pointing to a non-existant record - a sort of
orphan record situation. In which case the only way to resolve is to
never allow an SO to be really deleted and simply flag the record as
"deleted".

-Todd C.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Zeigafuse [mailto:fzeigafuse@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:08 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


That is a bs answer. What do they think an audit trail is! Am sure
this
complies with Sarbanes - Oxley not. That remark is even dumber. They
really need to buy a clue. Now I am mad.

Frank Zeigafuse
Innovative Office Products
General Manager
Direct Phone: 610-559-6369
Email: fzeigafuse@...



-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Parfrey [mailto:garyp@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:45 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Hi Group

I logged a call against this in January and received an explanation that
it
was designed this way, as they were worrried they would confuse users!!!

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of
halm180
Sent: 24 May 2005 14:03
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Change Logs and deleted records


Sales Orders behave the same way. We had a Sales Order Pick List
printed in the warehouse, the shipping department picked the parts and
tried to create a Packing Slip and the order no longer existed. It
obviously existed at one point, but then gone without a trace (or a
trail). Nobody owned-up to deleting the order. I have since learned
that if you set the option to "Book Sales Orders", an audit trail will
exist in the Booking Detail table. I am not aware of an equivalent for
Purchase Orders.

Peter Dunbar
Halm Industries Co., Inc.




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