Ot choose between Norton AV and Nod32

Yahoo Archive
21
LOCAL = 1) It's already paid for. Can't get a refund on money already
spent on licensing.
2)IF it breaks, they call you and you fix it.
HOSTED = 1) It's got to cost something, if not up front probably not
too far down the road.
2) WHEN it breaks, leave a message for tech support. They may get back
to you eventually. In the meantime, all business critical email is
down and maybe lost.
Only the Sales Department or Upper Managenment could come up with this
bright idea.
Good Luck.

John Elder
Penn State Tool & Die Corp.

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Shirley Graver" <shirleyg@R...>
wrote:
> Since we're giving out opinions today, Which would you prefer to
administer.
>
> An email server with local mailboxes, local spam control, and local
virus
> protection
>
> Or would you rather
>
> Use a web service where each user has an account to the web and all
of the
> above functions are handled by the vendor.
>
>
> Shirley.
>
> Tracking #: 995924E8544D8C4198907DDD467E0D87F74C6373
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
22
Hi Shirley,

We use Postini at $80/mo for 50 mail boxes.
I think it works great.
I do not have to be so concerned about email stuff.

Thanks,

John Mansfield
General Sheet Metal


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:02 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] ANOTHER OPINION

Since we're giving out opinions today, Which would you prefer to
administer.

An email server with local mailboxes, local spam control, and local
virus
protection

Or would you rather

Use a web service where each user has an account to the web and all of
the
above functions are handled by the vendor.


Shirley.

Tracking #: 995924E8544D8C4198907DDD467E0D87F74C6373


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
23
Shirley,

Our email is currently outsourced (standard POP3/SMTP) and is working fine
for our 25 users. I generally like outsourced better for small numbers of
users but greatly prefer local in-house setups for larger user counts for
the following reasons...

local mailboxes
so internal emails don't eat up bandwidth
and so you have access to log files when troubleshooting
local spam control
so you can more easily check for false positives
and add blacklist items
and so you have access to log files when troubleshooting
local anti-virus protection
so you know how many virus' are being caught
and so you have access to log files when troubleshooting

Some day we'll have both the budget and the time to work on that project.
;-)

Dan Snyder
IT Manager
Mercury Electronics
717-854-9557 ext.224


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:02 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] ANOTHER OPINION

Since we're giving out opinions today, Which would you prefer to administer.

An email server with local mailboxes, local spam control, and local virus
protection

Or would you rather

Use a web service where each user has an account to the web and all of the
above functions are handled by the vendor.


Shirley.

Tracking #: 995924E8544D8C4198907DDD467E0D87F74C6373
24
Interland - $60/mo. There are times I wish I had internal email - but this
works 98% OK. Does the job. -Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
John Mansfield
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:58 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] ANOTHER OPINION


Hi Shirley,

We use Postini at $80/mo for 50 mail boxes.
I think it works great.
I do not have to be so concerned about email stuff.

Thanks,

John Mansfield
General Sheet Metal


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:02 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] ANOTHER OPINION

Since we're giving out opinions today, Which would you prefer to administer.

An email server with local mailboxes, local spam control, and local virus
protection

Or would you rather

Use a web service where each user has an account to the web and all of the
above functions are handled by the vendor.


Shirley.

Tracking #: 995924E8544D8C4198907DDD467E0D87F74C6373


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links














Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
25
We used to have a local Exchange server but email was outsourced by
our corporation. It did lighten the workload a little but I still get
all the email problem calls, only to refer the users to the support
phone number. Now, however, I don't have to worry about Antivirus or
Antispam at the server so its been a relief.

Bruce Brannan
Engineered Products Department

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Polvinale" <garyp@d...> wrote:
> Interland - $60/mo. There are times I wish I had internal email -
but this
> works 98% OK. Does the job. -Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> John Mansfield
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:58 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] ANOTHER OPINION
>
>
> Hi Shirley,
>
> We use Postini at $80/mo for 50 mail boxes.
> I think it works great.
> I do not have to be so concerned about email stuff.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Mansfield
> General Sheet Metal
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> Shirley Graver
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:02 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] ANOTHER OPINION
>
> Since we're giving out opinions today, Which would you prefer to
administer.
>
> An email server with local mailboxes, local spam control, and local
virus
> protection
>
> Or would you rather
>
> Use a web service where each user has an account to the web and all
of the
> above functions are handled by the vendor.
>
>
> Shirley.
>
> Tracking #: 995924E8544D8C4198907DDD467E0D87F74C6373
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
26
We have Exchange 2003 but let Postini handle the spam and virus on the
front end. Follow that up with Symantec Antivirus for Exchange and we
are smooth sailing. Postini is great, and so far 98% perfect. No
viruses or spam get in our front door.



The load on our servers receiving spam, and checking it for virus
dropped off completely.



No worrying about spam or viruses has been wonderful.



Now if only there was a good enterprise antispyware...



________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of brucewbrannan
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:01 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION



We used to have a local Exchange server but email was outsourced by
our corporation. It did lighten the workload a little but I still get
all the email problem calls, only to refer the users to the support
phone number. Now, however, I don't have to worry about Antivirus or
Antispam at the server so its been a relief.

Bruce Brannan
Engineered Products Department

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Polvinale" <garyp@d...> wrote:
> Interland - $60/mo. There are times I wish I had internal email -
but this
> works 98% OK. Does the job. -Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> John Mansfield
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:58 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] ANOTHER OPINION
>
>
> Hi Shirley,
>
> We use Postini at $80/mo for 50 mail boxes.
> I think it works great.
> I do not have to be so concerned about email stuff.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Mansfield
> General Sheet Metal
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> Shirley Graver
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:02 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] ANOTHER OPINION
>
> Since we're giving out opinions today, Which would you prefer to
administer.
>
> An email server with local mailboxes, local spam control, and local
virus
> protection
>
> Or would you rather
>
> Use a web service where each user has an account to the web and all
of the
> above functions are handled by the vendor.
>
>
> Shirley.
>
> Tracking #: 995924E8544D8C4198907DDD467E0D87F74C6373
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




________________________________

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .



________________________________



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27
Since you asked ...

There are valid arguments for and against hosted email, and I would not
expend further energy or credibility fighting it, as it seems that the
decision has been made.

The real problem is why your company's management doesn't trust you to
be a part of this decision. You're in an interesting position, and I
would focus my efforts on improving it.

have fun,
john
28
OK, major email comes from customer telling you to cut one inch off the end
of the part and then ship it. ($80,000 part)



Contracts changes works order, engineering changes process, you cut the part
off, and contracts Shift/Deletes the email. (S... happens)



Customer now tells you they never said to cut 1 inch off the part. (Very
expensive paper weight/boat anchor)



Who do you trust to restore that email? I have done it many times with
Exchange and my in house backups.



Do you trust the web server people......



Dave Cole

Reeder & Kline





-----Original Message-----
From: pennstatetool [mailto:admin@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:21 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION



LOCAL = 1) It's already paid for. Can't get a refund on money already
spent on licensing.
2)IF it breaks, they call you and you fix it.
HOSTED = 1) It's got to cost something, if not up front probably not
too far down the road.
2) WHEN it breaks, leave a message for tech support. They may get back
to you eventually. In the meantime, all business critical email is
down and maybe lost.
Only the Sales Department or Upper Managenment could come up with this
bright idea.
Good Luck.

John Elder
Penn State Tool & Die Corp.

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Shirley Graver" <shirleyg@R...>
wrote:
> Since we're giving out opinions today, Which would you prefer to
administer.
>
> An email server with local mailboxes, local spam control, and local
virus
> protection
>
> Or would you rather
>
> Use a web service where each user has an account to the web and all
of the
> above functions are handled by the vendor.
>
>
> Shirley.
>
> Tracking #: 995924E8544D8C4198907DDD467E0D87F74C6373
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>




SPONSORED LINKS


Manufacturing software

Membership database software

Database mortgage software


Pda database software

Database management software

Online database software



_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage>
" on the web.


* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
29
You have the same problem whether or not you have hosted e-mail. Let's
say you have the e-mail and customer says, "I never sent that." How do
you prove he did? E-mail is easily forged and, unless you have some
sort of secure digital signature, really doesn't comply with most major
standards for validity and verification. We have a policy that all
orders or changes to orders must be received by fax or mail and include
appropriate signatures. While our customer service reps have room to
"start the process" with an e-mail, we don't release it to production
without the fax or mail copy.

Cole, Dave wrote:
> OK, major email comes from customer telling you to cut one inch off the end
> of the part and then ship it. ($80,000 part)
>
>
>
> Contracts changes works order, engineering changes process, you cut the part
> off, and contracts Shift/Deletes the email. (S... happens)
>
>
>
> Customer now tells you they never said to cut 1 inch off the part. (Very
> expensive paper weight/boat anchor)
>
>
>
> Who do you trust to restore that email? I have done it many times with
> Exchange and my in house backups.
>
>
>
> Do you trust the web server people......
>
>
>
> Dave Cole
>
> Reeder & Kline
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pennstatetool [mailto:admin@...]
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:21 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION
>
>
>
> LOCAL = 1) It's already paid for. Can't get a refund on money already
> spent on licensing.
> 2)IF it breaks, they call you and you fix it.
> HOSTED = 1) It's got to cost something, if not up front probably not
> too far down the road.
> 2) WHEN it breaks, leave a message for tech support. They may get back
> to you eventually. In the meantime, all business critical email is
> down and maybe lost.
> Only the Sales Department or Upper Managenment could come up with this
> bright idea.
> Good Luck.
>
> John Elder
> Penn State Tool & Die Corp.
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Shirley Graver" <shirleyg@R...>
> wrote:
>
>>Since we're giving out opinions today, Which would you prefer to
>
> administer.
>
>>
>>An email server with local mailboxes, local spam control, and local
>
> virus
>
>>protection
>>
>>Or would you rather
>>
>>Use a web service where each user has an account to the web and all
>
> of the
>
>>above functions are handled by the vendor.
>>
>>
>>Shirley.
>>
>>Tracking #: 995924E8544D8C4198907DDD467E0D87F74C6373
>>
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
>
> Manufacturing software
>
> Membership database software
>
> Database mortgage software
>
>
> Pda database software
>
> Database management software
>
> Online database software
>
>
>
> _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> * Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage>
> " on the web.
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
30
I usually let these go, but it struck a cord in me. My knowledge is
more on the infrastructure side and not the application (such as
Vantage). So where you are comfortable in Vantage, I am scared to
death, but I can put a network together and understand the
implications of a bad network.

Shirley if you are the Network Admin/Manager/Only tech person on the
block, YOU need to take control of the network or it will implode on
itself. I hear what Todd is saying about moving on, and maybe he is
right. However if I am responsible for supporting the sales dept.
email, it will be MY decision (since that is what they hired me
for). What does sales know about technology infrastructure?

For those of you that outsource your email, how do you back up the
email or plan for disaster recovery? Hosting your own email will
cost the organization less over the long run and you can still be
protected by using services such as AppRiver (www.appriver.com) to
block spam and viruses.

I constantly watch the postings on this group and I am very impressed
with the Vantage knowledge of this group. I hope that what I offered
here helps someone out there.

Jeff


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "todd Anderson" <todd.anderson@s...>
wrote:
> Shirley -
>
> Take the HINT, it's time to move on ...
>
> Todd
>
> _____
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> Shirley Graver
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:31 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION
>
>
> Our Sales department, all on their own, decided that the email
system
> needed changing. Tuesday they told me that it was being
implemented
> for all salary tomorrow. I was excluded from this process. At the
> moment we're in neutral corners, but the bell rings for the final
> round tomorrow. Sales built a web page and the host has web mail
so
> they thought it was a good idea to change the infrastructure.
>
> Shirley
>
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Edward F. Fox, Jr." <efox@m...>
> wrote:
> > You have my interest now. Can you recommend vendors too?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of
> > Shirley Graver
> > Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:02 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Vantage] ANOTHER OPINION
> >
> >
> > Since we're giving out opinions today, Which would you prefer to
> administer.
> >
> > An email server with local mailboxes, local spam control, and
local
> virus
> > protection
> >
> > Or would you rather
> >
> > Use a web service where each user has an account to the web and
all
> of the
> > above functions are handled by the vendor.
> >
> >
> > Shirley.
> >
> > Tracking #: 995924E8544D8C4198907DDD467E0D87F74C6373
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
> must have
> > already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> > (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
> Builder and
> > Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> > (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> > (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
> _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> * Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
> on the web.
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
> _____
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
31
We outsource email. I have batch files set up to copy everyone's
outlook/outlook express folders to a server - which is backed up nightly.
Additionally each ws is backed up on its own to a separate HD on that ws
every night. "Overkill" is not in my vocabulary.

Gary Polvinale
Denton ATD


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
maurojm
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:20 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION



I usually let these go, but it struck a cord in me. My knowledge is
more on the infrastructure side and not the application (such as
Vantage). So where you are comfortable in Vantage, I am scared to
death, but I can put a network together and understand the
implications of a bad network.

Shirley if you are the Network Admin/Manager/Only tech person on the
block, YOU need to take control of the network or it will implode on
itself. I hear what Todd is saying about moving on, and maybe he is
right. However if I am responsible for supporting the sales dept.
email, it will be MY decision (since that is what they hired me
for). What does sales know about technology infrastructure?

For those of you that outsource your email, how do you back up the
email or plan for disaster recovery? Hosting your own email will
cost the organization less over the long run and you can still be
protected by using services such as AppRiver (www.appriver.com) to
block spam and viruses.

I constantly watch the postings on this group and I am very impressed
with the Vantage knowledge of this group. I hope that what I offered
here helps someone out there.

Jeff


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "todd Anderson" <todd.anderson@s...>
wrote:
> Shirley -
>
> Take the HINT, it's time to move on ...
>
> Todd
>
> _____
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> Shirley Graver
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:31 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION
>
>
> Our Sales department, all on their own, decided that the email
system
> needed changing. Tuesday they told me that it was being
implemented
> for all salary tomorrow. I was excluded from this process. At the
> moment we're in neutral corners, but the bell rings for the final
> round tomorrow. Sales built a web page and the host has web mail
so
> they thought it was a good idea to change the infrastructure.
>
> Shirley
>
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Edward F. Fox, Jr." <efox@m...>
> wrote:
> > You have my interest now. Can you recommend vendors too?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of
> > Shirley Graver
> > Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:02 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Vantage] ANOTHER OPINION
> >
> >
> > Since we're giving out opinions today, Which would you prefer to
> administer.
> >
> > An email server with local mailboxes, local spam control, and
local
> virus
> > protection
> >
> > Or would you rather
> >
> > Use a web service where each user has an account to the web and
all
> of the
> > above functions are handled by the vendor.
> >
> >
> > Shirley.
> >
> > Tracking #: 995924E8544D8C4198907DDD467E0D87F74C6373
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
> must have
> > already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> > (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
> Builder and
> > Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> > (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> > (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
> _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> * Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
> on the web.
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
> _____
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
32
Good reply, Jeff, and very accurate. I am in the same boat as you, but
I hope to learn more about Vantage - but that will mean that I will have
to understand the business more (oh horrors!). I don't like to do that
as that niche's my skills, and I don't want to be pigeon-holed. A good
network is valuable to ANY company - without having to totally
understand the business.



Of course, the bean counters will want numbers about the in-house
costing less in the long run, but outside of when I worked for Fleet
Bank (now Bank of America), I have yet to see hard numbers on what it
costs per person per hour of any network resource downtime. As the IT
Manager, the pressure I get when things appear even just slow (making a
backup during the day), but no one gives me hard numbers about what it
is costing the company or will cost the company if something dies - it
mostly comes from an inconvenience side of things. In-house IT staff is
like an insurance policy, but like all policies, it better be a good one
and be comprehensive about what it covers. Outsourcing has its
advantages and disadvantages, but it must be managed by someone
competent and that person be allowed to make the final decisions.



Like Jeff, I play a clandestine character on this post, but this struck
a chord in me also. I hope to meet everyone at Perspectives to gain
more insight and meet everyone face to face. Your posts have been
extremely helpful. FYI, my company has been on Vantage 8 for quite a
few months and I hope to meet in person others who have been going
through the same mess as us to share my ignorance on the product.



Thank you all.

Steven Comeau
Manager of Corporate IT Systems
Main Tape
1 Capital Drive, Suite 101
Cranbury, NJ 08512
1-800-526-8273 x332

_____

From: maurojm [mailto:jeff.mauro@...]
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:20 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION




I usually let these go, but it struck a cord in me. My knowledge is
more on the infrastructure side and not the application (such as
Vantage). So where you are comfortable in Vantage, I am scared to
death, but I can put a network together and understand the
implications of a bad network.

Shirley if you are the Network Admin/Manager/Only tech person on the
block, YOU need to take control of the network or it will implode on
itself. I hear what Todd is saying about moving on, and maybe he is
right. However if I am responsible for supporting the sales dept.
email, it will be MY decision (since that is what they hired me
for). What does sales know about technology infrastructure?

For those of you that outsource your email, how do you back up the
email or plan for disaster recovery? Hosting your own email will
cost the organization less over the long run and you can still be
protected by using services such as AppRiver (www.appriver.com) to
block spam and viruses.

I constantly watch the postings on this group and I am very impressed
with the Vantage knowledge of this group. I hope that what I offered
here helps someone out there.

Jeff


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "todd Anderson" <todd.anderson@s...>
wrote:
> Shirley -
>
> Take the HINT, it's time to move on ...
>
> Todd
>
> _____
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> Shirley Graver
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:31 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION
>
>
> Our Sales department, all on their own, decided that the email
system
> needed changing. Tuesday they told me that it was being
implemented
> for all salary tomorrow. I was excluded from this process. At the
> moment we're in neutral corners, but the bell rings for the final
> round tomorrow. Sales built a web page and the host has web mail
so
> they thought it was a good idea to change the infrastructure.
>
> Shirley
>
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Edward F. Fox, Jr." <efox@m...>
> wrote:
> > You have my interest now. Can you recommend vendors too?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of
> > Shirley Graver
> > Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:02 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Vantage] ANOTHER OPINION
> >
> >
> > Since we're giving out opinions today, Which would you prefer to
> administer.
> >
> > An email server with local mailboxes, local spam control, and
local
> virus
> > protection
> >
> > Or would you rather
> >
> > Use a web service where each user has an account to the web and
all
> of the
> > above functions are handled by the vendor.
> >
> >
> > Shirley.
> >
> > Tracking #: 995924E8544D8C4198907DDD467E0D87F74C6373
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
> must have
> > already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> > (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
> Builder and
> > Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
> > (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> > (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
> _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> * Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
> on the web.
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
> _____
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




SPONSORED LINKS

Manufacturing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Online+d
atabase+software&c=6&s=185&.sig=AvWEwtBBb2CCZUYeLzjLVQ>

Membership database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=On
line+database+software&c=6&s=185&.sig=8uEu2piLZhrmuaS0aRTs5A>

Database mortgage software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
acturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+s
oftware&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Onli
ne+database+software&c=6&s=185&.sig=WxJOMUVfawa-Spj4srksIw>

Pda database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwa
re&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Online+da
tabase+software&c=6&s=185&.sig=8c6UocdSpoECWlSALplOdQ>

Database management software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=On
line+database+software&c=6&s=185&.sig=C2nNY1SnmwAiBO61ww9nTw>

Online database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Online+database+software&w1=Manufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
tware&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Online
+database+software&c=6&s=185&.sig=cYursVrba9nF7BBMh8EfUA>



_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .



_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
33
John,
I did an informal poll of the group a while back (5-25-05). The results
were this...

Symantec - 5 for, 3 against, 15users cost $420 (renewal)
Trend Micro - 6 for, 0 against, 15users cost $258
MCAfee - 1 for, 2 against, 15users cost $180
eTrust - 2 for, 0 against, 15 users cost $455
NOD32 - 2 for, 0 against, 15 users cost $510

Based on the above data we dumped Symantec for Trend and have been happy
with it since. No virus breakthroughs, and 100s of infected files fixed
that Symantec had missed while it was in charge bringing one computer back
to functional from the brink of reformat and start again.

Good luck.
Aaron Hoyt
Vantage Plastics

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of mansfield1024
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 11:55 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] ot choose between Norton AV and Nod32


Hi everyone,

I need to decide between Norton AV Corporate and
NOD32.

Am I wrong to choose NOD32?

Thanks,

John Mansfield
General Sheet Metal






Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
34
Steven,

> I hope to learn more about Vantage - but that will mean that I will have
> to understand the business more (oh horrors!). I don't like to do that
> as that niche's my skills, and I don't want to be pigeon-holed. A good
> network is valuable to ANY company - without having to totally
> understand the business.

This is a dangerous assumption. Every IT manager needs to understand
the business of the company he works for. He needs to understand
intimately its business goals (not "make a profit" or "ship product" -
that is far too simplistic a viewpoint).

Why? IT needs to align itself to the goals of the business. IT needs
to understand what information the business needs. IT needs to
understand if its systems deliver this information to the management of
the company when, how and where its needed. IT needs to understand
where it falls short. And IT needs to understand where the company is
going and how it can support that both now and a year from now.

If IT fails the above, then adjustments need to be made, and most often
by management. Will the right adjustments be made? Who knows. In
Shirley's case, perhaps the decision to outsource email is not the best.
But certainly management felt compelled to take this decision upon
themselves. At the very least, Sales felt that IT was not supporting
their needs.

And before anyone raises "this department" vs "that department"
arguments, all departments must understand each others' needs and work
together to drive the business towards its goals.

The most damaging position any manager can take (IT or otherwise) is
that his department exists solely for itself, with its own goals and its
own needs. IT, like every department, supports the business. If the IT
manager doesn't understand where the company is or where its going, then
it's time to sit down with the President or CEO and ask.


$0.02
john
a (non-financial) IT manager
35
Very well stated. I had intended to respond in a similar fashion. Now I
do not have to. The only thing I would add is that I think without
intimately involving yourself in the business you are in fact "pigeon
holing" yourself.

Todd Hofert
IT Director
Spartan Graphics, Inc.



-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of John Sage
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 11:57 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION

Steven,

> I hope to learn more about Vantage - but that will mean that I will
> have to understand the business more (oh horrors!). I don't like to
> do that as that niche's my skills, and I don't want to be
> pigeon-holed. A good network is valuable to ANY company - without
> having to totally understand the business.

This is a dangerous assumption. Every IT manager needs to understand
the business of the company he works for. He needs to understand
intimately its business goals (not "make a profit" or "ship product" -
that is far too simplistic a viewpoint).

Why? IT needs to align itself to the goals of the business. IT needs
to understand what information the business needs. IT needs to
understand if its systems deliver this information to the management of
the company when, how and where its needed. IT needs to understand
where it falls short. And IT needs to understand where the company is
going and how it can support that both now and a year from now.

If IT fails the above, then adjustments need to be made, and most often
by management. Will the right adjustments be made? Who knows. In
Shirley's case, perhaps the decision to outsource email is not the best.

But certainly management felt compelled to take this decision upon
themselves. At the very least, Sales felt that IT was not supporting
their needs.

And before anyone raises "this department" vs "that department"
arguments, all departments must understand each others' needs and work
together to drive the business towards its goals.

The most damaging position any manager can take (IT or otherwise) is
that his department exists solely for itself, with its own goals and its
own needs. IT, like every department, supports the business. If the IT
manager doesn't understand where the company is or where its going, then
it's time to sit down with the President or CEO and ask.


$0.02
john
a (non-financial) IT manager










------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Fair play? Video games influencing politics. Click and talk back!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/T8sf5C/tzNLAA/TtwFAA/PhFolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links










This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the
sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any
copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other
than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
36
I agree 100%.
Pure techies can be outsourced - the skill is a commodity that can be learned anywhere.
Business knowledge is unique to each business and can only be learned there - an investment to be preserved.
Aligning technical knowledge with the business knowledge for business advantage - priceless, total win-win for the business and the IT person.
-Todd C.

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of John Sage
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:57 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION


Steven,

> I hope to learn more about Vantage - but that will mean that I will have
> to understand the business more (oh horrors!). I don't like to do that
> as that niche's my skills, and I don't want to be pigeon-holed. A good
> network is valuable to ANY company - without having to totally
> understand the business.

This is a dangerous assumption. Every IT manager needs to understand
the business of the company he works for. He needs to understand
intimately its business goals (not "make a profit" or "ship product" -
that is far too simplistic a viewpoint).

Why? IT needs to align itself to the goals of the business. IT needs
to understand what information the business needs. IT needs to
understand if its systems deliver this information to the management of
the company when, how and where its needed. IT needs to understand
where it falls short. And IT needs to understand where the company is
going and how it can support that both now and a year from now.

If IT fails the above, then adjustments need to be made, and most often
by management. Will the right adjustments be made? Who knows. In
Shirley's case, perhaps the decision to outsource email is not the best.
But certainly management felt compelled to take this decision upon
themselves. At the very least, Sales felt that IT was not supporting
their needs.

And before anyone raises "this department" vs "that department"
arguments, all departments must understand each others' needs and work
together to drive the business towards its goals.

The most damaging position any manager can take (IT or otherwise) is
that his department exists solely for itself, with its own goals and its
own needs. IT, like every department, supports the business. If the IT
manager doesn't understand where the company is or where its going, then
it's time to sit down with the President or CEO and ask.


$0.02
john
a (non-financial) IT manager










Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group " vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.


* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


_____




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
37
John,

Absolutely dead on! When I was CIO of a silicon valley tech company,
we had every tech hire spend at least one month working in another
department prior to working in support or development to make sure
they were intimately familiar with the business needs of the company.
Unless your company is in the business of developing technology, IT
is always a cost center and as such must be managed as any service
where ROI is the preiminent management consideration.

Steven,

"I have yet to see hard numbers on what it costs per person per hour
of any network resource downtime. As the IT Manager, the pressure I
get when things appear even just slow (making a backup during the
day), but no one gives me hard numbers about what it is costing the
company or will cost the company if something dies..."

As a reseller of blade PC systems, I have a detailed TCO analysis
available that I would be more than happy to share if you would like.
That being said, here are some of the numbers that you might find
interesting:

Average salary of PC technician: $70K
Average salary of Help Desk staff: $60K

Deploy

Equipment setup and installation time per PC (Hours): 5.2 - $182

Manage

Number of Moves/Adds/Changes (MAC) per year per user: 1.2
Hours per MAC (planning, moving, troubleshooting): 5.0 - $175
Hours for Asset Management per PC per year: 1.0 - $35
Number of Desktop Upgrades per Year (Hardware/Software): 1.0
Hours per Upgrade (per PC): 4.7 - $165

Support

Avg. number of tech trips to desktop per user per year: 3.0
Avg. time per trip to user desktop(hours): 1.5 - $52.50
Avg. number of Help Desk calls per user per year: 5.0
Avg. length of Help Desk call (Hours): .5 - $15

User Down Time

Avg. number of hours of user downtime per year: 24
Opportunity cost of user downtime ($/Hr.): $50

Average Annual Support Cost Per PC

Amortized Hardware Expense: $195
Technical Support: $824.50
Opportunity Cost: $1,200
Avg. Weighted Cost Of Capital: 10%

Average Annual TCO per PC: $2,461.25

These numbers were derived from an IDC enterprise customer survey and
from a US airforce internal study so take them as you will as to how
they may apply to your company but the clear picture is that the
annual support costs not the purchase price are the largest
components of TCO.

BTW the reason that we became interested in the blade PC's is that
they knock 80% of the support costs out of the equation. So the next
time management wants you to "white box" a couple of dozen systems
you might have some numbers to convince them otherwise.

Michael

Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
98 Main Street, Suite 353
Tiburon, CA 94920
415-461-4735
312-803-0730 fax
http://www.aspacia.com


---- Original Message ----
From: todd@...
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:13:56 -0400

>Very well stated. I had intended to respond in a similar fashion. Now
>I
>do not have to. The only thing I would add is that I think without
>intimately involving yourself in the business you are in fact "pigeon
>holing" yourself.
>
>Todd Hofert
>IT Director
>Spartan Graphics, Inc.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
>Behalf
>Of John Sage
>Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 11:57 AM
>To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION
>
>Steven,
>
>> I hope to learn more about Vantage - but that will mean that I will
>
>> have to understand the business more (oh horrors!). I don't like
>to
>> do that as that niche's my skills, and I don't want to be
>> pigeon-holed. A good network is valuable to ANY company - without
>> having to totally understand the business.
>
>This is a dangerous assumption. Every IT manager needs to understand
>the business of the company he works for. He needs to understand
>intimately its business goals (not "make a profit" or "ship product"
>-
>that is far too simplistic a viewpoint).
>
>Why? IT needs to align itself to the goals of the business. IT
>needs
>to understand what information the business needs. IT needs to
>understand if its systems deliver this information to the management
>of
>the company when, how and where its needed. IT needs to understand
>where it falls short. And IT needs to understand where the company
>is
>going and how it can support that both now and a year from now.
>
>If IT fails the above, then adjustments need to be made, and most
>often
>by management. Will the right adjustments be made? Who knows. In
>Shirley's case, perhaps the decision to outsource email is not the
>best.
>
> But certainly management felt compelled to take this decision upon
>themselves. At the very least, Sales felt that IT was not supporting
>their needs.
>
>And before anyone raises "this department" vs "that department"
>arguments, all departments must understand each others' needs and
>work
>together to drive the business towards its goals.
>
>The most damaging position any manager can take (IT or otherwise) is
>that his department exists solely for itself, with its own goals and
>its
>own needs. IT, like every department, supports the business. If the
>IT
>manager doesn't understand where the company is or where its going,
>then
>it's time to sit down with the President or CEO and ask.
>
>
>$0.02
>john
>a (non-financial) IT manager
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>--------------------~-->
>Fair play? Video games influencing politics. Click and talk back!
>http://us.click.yahoo.com/T8sf5C/tzNLAA/TtwFAA/PhFolB/TM
>--------------------------------------------------------------------~
>->
>
>Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
>must
>have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
>access. )
>(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
>and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
>(2) To search through old msg's goto:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
>(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and
>privileged
>information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the
>sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy
>any
>copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person
>other
>than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
>
>
>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>--------------------~-->
>Most low income households are not online. Help bridge the digital
>divide today!
>http://us.click.yahoo.com/cd_AJB/QnQLAA/TtwFAA/PhFolB/TM
>--------------------------------------------------------------------~
>->
>
>Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
>must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
>access. )
>(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
>and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
>(2) To search through old msg's goto:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
>(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
38
To dwell further on this, until recently management would not support the
resources needed to improve the system. I am very sensitive to my users and
treat newbies and savy with the same respect. Our business is molded
rubber. I've been in the rubber industry for over 30 years as: factory
worker, machine operator, shift foreman, cost estimator, sales, chem. Lab,
Quality Inspector, Quality Manager, ISO/QS Management Representative, and
Systems Administrator for about 10 of those years. I've written the bulk of
the company's policies and procedures. So yeah I know the business.

To me the issue is less about technology and more about respect. I listen
to my users, they are what give a network shape. I get to see the entire
picture of the network entity. Not just one narrow view of someone's email
box.

Shirley

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Todd Caughey
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 1:04 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION

I agree 100%.
Pure techies can be outsourced - the skill is a commodity that can be
learned anywhere.
Business knowledge is unique to each business and can only be learned there
- an investment to be preserved.
Aligning technical knowledge with the business knowledge for business
advantage - priceless, total win-win for the business and the IT person.
-Todd C.

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
John Sage
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:57 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION


Steven,

> I hope to learn more about Vantage - but that will mean that I will have
> to understand the business more (oh horrors!). I don't like to do that
> as that niche's my skills, and I don't want to be pigeon-holed. A good
> network is valuable to ANY company - without having to totally
> understand the business.

This is a dangerous assumption. Every IT manager needs to understand
the business of the company he works for. He needs to understand
intimately its business goals (not "make a profit" or "ship product" -
that is far too simplistic a viewpoint).

Why? IT needs to align itself to the goals of the business. IT needs
to understand what information the business needs. IT needs to
understand if its systems deliver this information to the management of
the company when, how and where its needed. IT needs to understand
where it falls short. And IT needs to understand where the company is
going and how it can support that both now and a year from now.

If IT fails the above, then adjustments need to be made, and most often
by management. Will the right adjustments be made? Who knows. In
Shirley's case, perhaps the decision to outsource email is not the best.
But certainly management felt compelled to take this decision upon
themselves. At the very least, Sales felt that IT was not supporting
their needs.

And before anyone raises "this department" vs "that department"
arguments, all departments must understand each others' needs and work
together to drive the business towards its goals.

The most damaging position any manager can take (IT or otherwise) is
that his department exists solely for itself, with its own goals and its
own needs. IT, like every department, supports the business. If the IT
manager doesn't understand where the company is or where its going, then
it's time to sit down with the President or CEO and ask.


$0.02
john
a (non-financial) IT manager










Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group " vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
on the web.


* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


_____




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

_____


Tracking #: A93F5082A19F044088CD65335D8FD46D500FC7C0


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
39
Steven,

If you are involved in the management of the business, if you speak the
language of the business principals, if you hear clearly the needs of
your internal customers and are invested in the success of the
enterprise - then you will have a very large say in how IT gets done in
your organization.

If you are unable or unwilling to articulate what is or is not good IT
practice to the rest of management, if you fail to concern yourself with
how IT can support revenue growth or cost reduction, if you fail to hear
clearly when your internal customers tell you that you're not meeting
their needs - your opinion and your practices will become irrelevant to
management, and decision-making authority will be removed from your hands.

Any IT manager can shape policy, regardless of whether they are young,
old, new or whatever. Just as we have to struggle personally to remain
technically relevant in our chosen field, we have to strive even harder
to be a relevant part of the management of the company.

So I guess it would boil down to how you view yourself - as an IT
manager who is technically adept, or as a business manager who has a
thorough grasp of how IT can bring benefit to the bottom line.

have a great weekend,
john



Comeau, Steven wrote:
> Good IT practices are standard in any company – regardless of what
> product or services they provide (my 5 point preaching platform is
> Documentation, Standardization, Stabilization, Consolidation, and
> Intensification). I think to come to an agreement here, it needs to be
> defined what is and isn’t “the business” or “business needs”. Every
> company has its bent using technology, and IT can mould it to meet
> certain needs, but there are core IT principles that should not be
> compromised (at least I won’t) for the sake of a particular way a
> manager (or even a president) wants to run a business.
>
> I have seen IT be expected to be the expert on every thing that is
> powered up by a plug or battery (even providing that power) while also
> intimately knowing acute details of every piece of software and
> departmental minutia. I stand against that. I don’t give a hoot
> personally about reverse data regression or paper versus plastic cores,
> but I also don’t expect users to understand IPSec over UDP. I listen to
> their needs to the extent that I can understand them, and I give them
> the tools, and ones that play with everyone and it is up to management
> to see their employees have the training to use those tools (yes I do
> give assistance here), but customized training is needed especially when
> those tools are peculiar to the department. I play fair for the whole
> company, but do it based on standards that IT develops, without having
> to cater to “felt needs” that weren’t supposedly being met. I have
> always pushed for “experts” or IT bridges in every department who knows
> their needs and departments well and I play the “referee”. IT is a
> department like others also, and as such, should have visions, goals,
> and practices, but unlike most departments (except HR), it integrates
> into every other department to some extent.
>
> Frankly, I don’t find being a Vantage expert nor an expert in making
> protective tape a marketable skill for an IT person. However,
> understanding certain basics and why I would or wouldn’t choose Vantage
> or another ERP system is more marketable, as well as providing an email
> system that is up 99.99% with near 100% recoverability in a published
> (and agreed up) SLA with no virus intrusion and very little spam. Oh,
> and I’ve saved my company over 50% of my present salary on a yearly
> basis (in hard, calculable dollars) by being a better IT person than my
> predecessor. Everyone will tell you he understood the business better,
> but they will also tell you I understand IT better. I supported about
> 100 machines in 3 countries and two manufacturing plants that includes
> 12 servers and do all file/print, database upkeep, phone system, most
> wiring, FAX, voicemail, cell phone administration, and Vantage all on my
> own. I just hired a DBA last month to take care of mostly Vantage issues.
>
> Our company has a new president/CEO (less than 1 month old) and just let
> go of the COO, some engineers, and other high level personnel. I guess
> the investors didn’t like the “direction” we were going. While our
> direction will now change, my core IT principles won’t as they can be
> applied in any direction that we go.
>
> Just my $0.03 (adjusted for inflation).
>
> Steven Comeau
40
Not to mention Sarbanes--Oxley appears to be being applied to privately held
companies as well now...any legal "stuff" you want to be able to pull up all
of your "legal documents" which now include e-mails in and out...how does
that work with web hosted?

Lydia


-----Original Message-----
From: Juliet Martin [mailto:jmartin@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:41 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION


So when/if the internet is down they have no e-mail whatsoever?.? With an
e-mail server if the internet is down you can still e-mail internally.

Security. All their e-mails can be read by the hosting party.

JM


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:31 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: ANOTHER OPINION


Our Sales department, all on their own, decided that the email system
needed changing. Tuesday they told me that it was being implemented
for all salary tomorrow. I was excluded from this process. At the
moment we're in neutral corners, but the bell rings for the final
round tomorrow. Sales built a web page and the host has web mail so
they thought it was a good idea to change the infrastructure.

Shirley


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Edward F. Fox, Jr." <efox@m...>
wrote:
> You have my interest now. Can you recommend vendors too?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> Shirley Graver
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:02 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] ANOTHER OPINION
>
>
> Since we're giving out opinions today, Which would you prefer to
administer.
>
> An email server with local mailboxes, local spam control, and local
virus
> protection
>
> Or would you rather
>
> Use a web service where each user has an account to the web and all
of the
> above functions are handled by the vendor.
>
>
> Shirley.
>
> Tracking #: 995924E8544D8C4198907DDD467E0D87F74C6373
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links





Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links









Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links