Todd,
My company bought a license for ProVision when we bought Vantage because we
knew that we would have to build at least one custom module. Progress is an
excellent, full-featured language that will allow you to do just about
anything that you need it to. One developers' license runs about $5K and I
would strongly recommend spending another $2K (plus travel costs) to go to
their training course. If you are familiar with an event-driven language
like Visual Basic, you should have no problem using the Progress GUI tools.
The devil is in the details, however, and after two and a half years of
programming (part-time) with this language there is still plenty to be
learned to greatly improve the applications. I've been attending a Progress
Users' Group in Austin that has proved to be invaluable!!
This is really a full-time endeavor. The learning curve is steep enough
that, unless you are ready to devote at least one person full-time, buying
the tools and the source code may not be worth it. We just hired a
full-time programmer because we finally figured out that that's what it
would take to make effective use of our investments in the changes we are
making.
As for the cost of the source code, I can't really answer that question for
you because our circumstances are pretty unusual, but I've heard that the
normal costs run around $30k. Yeah, I know. They're pretty proud of their
code.
All that said, the next issue is Epicor's code itself. Looking through the
source code, here are a few of my observations:
1. They make extensive use of code libraries (include files), which can be
a good thing because once you understand what the library code does, it
makes reading the code much faster and easier. The downside is the large
learning-curve associated with understanding the libraries. Additionally,
they don't always use libraries consistently and there are redundant
libraries all over the place.
2. The code isn't always where you would expect it to be. For example,
like Visual Basic, the GUI development tools allow you to associate code
blocks with specific events. I would expect to find the code that would be
executed when a user clicks on the OK button with the Click event for the
button. Most often, however, its not there; its usually in the main code
block using their own triggers. I think this goes back to old versions of
the language that required a different coding style and now they are stuck
with code that was developed the old way.
3. Some of the code is >very< well written; some needs a lot of work.
Typical of any product developed with a large team. Its unfortunate that
they don't appear to have a strong Software Quality Assurance team reviewing
the code for consistency and maintainability. They tend to document fixes
in the header, but don't document what exactly was changed. Comments in the
code are rare. The language is designed to be somewhat self-documenting,
but they don't always make use of good and/or consistent naming conventions
to aid in this process.
Bottom line: The biggest issues are the cost and the learning curve. If
your company is not ready to spend the money it will take, if you don't have
the resources to devote to it, then you may be better off hiring someone to
do the programming for you. I have had the opportunity to work with Mark
Charamut from Caesar Development, as well as Michael Podlin, and I think
very highly of both of them and their ability to deliver quality products.
One way or the other, your company is going to have to spend some money.
Its really a question of whether or not you want to be in the development
business.
Good luck!
================
Steve Sanders
Delta Centrifugal Corp.
-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Caughey [mailto:caugheyt@...]
Subject: [Vantage] Progress Programming
<snip>
So anyone out there writing their own Progress routines and reports?
Screens? How long did it take to get comfortable with? Roughly what does
the Progress license cost? How about the source code side for Vantage? I
am adamant about not touching native Vantage but rather just creating some
reports and selection criteria screens for them. Any notable pitfalls in
this approach?
eGroups Sponsor
We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go
to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My
Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the
link above will work the next time you try it.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My company bought a license for ProVision when we bought Vantage because we
knew that we would have to build at least one custom module. Progress is an
excellent, full-featured language that will allow you to do just about
anything that you need it to. One developers' license runs about $5K and I
would strongly recommend spending another $2K (plus travel costs) to go to
their training course. If you are familiar with an event-driven language
like Visual Basic, you should have no problem using the Progress GUI tools.
The devil is in the details, however, and after two and a half years of
programming (part-time) with this language there is still plenty to be
learned to greatly improve the applications. I've been attending a Progress
Users' Group in Austin that has proved to be invaluable!!
This is really a full-time endeavor. The learning curve is steep enough
that, unless you are ready to devote at least one person full-time, buying
the tools and the source code may not be worth it. We just hired a
full-time programmer because we finally figured out that that's what it
would take to make effective use of our investments in the changes we are
making.
As for the cost of the source code, I can't really answer that question for
you because our circumstances are pretty unusual, but I've heard that the
normal costs run around $30k. Yeah, I know. They're pretty proud of their
code.
All that said, the next issue is Epicor's code itself. Looking through the
source code, here are a few of my observations:
1. They make extensive use of code libraries (include files), which can be
a good thing because once you understand what the library code does, it
makes reading the code much faster and easier. The downside is the large
learning-curve associated with understanding the libraries. Additionally,
they don't always use libraries consistently and there are redundant
libraries all over the place.
2. The code isn't always where you would expect it to be. For example,
like Visual Basic, the GUI development tools allow you to associate code
blocks with specific events. I would expect to find the code that would be
executed when a user clicks on the OK button with the Click event for the
button. Most often, however, its not there; its usually in the main code
block using their own triggers. I think this goes back to old versions of
the language that required a different coding style and now they are stuck
with code that was developed the old way.
3. Some of the code is >very< well written; some needs a lot of work.
Typical of any product developed with a large team. Its unfortunate that
they don't appear to have a strong Software Quality Assurance team reviewing
the code for consistency and maintainability. They tend to document fixes
in the header, but don't document what exactly was changed. Comments in the
code are rare. The language is designed to be somewhat self-documenting,
but they don't always make use of good and/or consistent naming conventions
to aid in this process.
Bottom line: The biggest issues are the cost and the learning curve. If
your company is not ready to spend the money it will take, if you don't have
the resources to devote to it, then you may be better off hiring someone to
do the programming for you. I have had the opportunity to work with Mark
Charamut from Caesar Development, as well as Michael Podlin, and I think
very highly of both of them and their ability to deliver quality products.
One way or the other, your company is going to have to spend some money.
Its really a question of whether or not you want to be in the development
business.
Good luck!
================
Steve Sanders
Delta Centrifugal Corp.
-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Caughey [mailto:caugheyt@...]
Subject: [Vantage] Progress Programming
<snip>
So anyone out there writing their own Progress routines and reports?
Screens? How long did it take to get comfortable with? Roughly what does
the Progress license cost? How about the source code side for Vantage? I
am adamant about not touching native Vantage but rather just creating some
reports and selection criteria screens for them. Any notable pitfalls in
this approach?
eGroups Sponsor
We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go
to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My
Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the
link above will work the next time you try it.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]