SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)

Yahoo Archive
1
My CAM mentioned that I would need a CAL for each user hitting the
database, so we have 77 licensed users for E9 and purchased Enterprise
Search for 77 users, so I would need 77 CAL's. It looks like processor
licensing it is.

Travis L. McMullen
ERP Specialist
ComSonics, Inc.
Harrisonburg, VA 22801
Phone: 540-434-5965 x1274
Toll Free: 1-800-336-9681 x1274
Mobile: 540-435-1920
Fax: 540-434-9847
E-Mail: tmcmullen@...


On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Scott Litzau
<scott.litzau@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> I received this form my CAM about a month ago
>
> �However, CALS are consider 2 for 1. So if you have 20 users, I only need
> to order 10 CALs.�
>
> Scott
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Stephen Booth
> Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 8:46 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
>
> Subject: Re: [Vantage] Re: SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)
>
>
> If anyone would like a reference to the clarification point, do a google
> search for multiplexing sql server
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Booth <stephenb927@... <mailto:stephenb927%40yahoo.com>
> >
> To: "vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> " <
> vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> >
> Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 7:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vantage] Re: SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)
>
> If you're using Epicor sold software then you don't have to worry about
> buying SQL Server. It's part of your license through Epicor.
>
> I would like to clarify one of Ned's points. His point #2 is a common
> misconception within the industry. It doesn't matter if many users are
> connecting through one point of entry (be it an application or otherwise)
> all users making a connection need a CAL, if and only if, you license per
> server. Even if, technically speaking, the application is making the
> connection, all users then making a connection to the application need a
> client access CAL for SQL Server. Your license through epicor is per
> processor. Microsoft is switching licensing schemes in SQL 2012 to make it
> less confusing, hopefully.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Anon <epicor-team@... <mailto:
> epicor-team%40wisconsinconverting.com> >
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:03 AM
> Subject: [Vantage] Re: SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)
>
> We bought out SQL 08 license through Epicor and have their supplied disc.
> I guess I wasn't aware that any additional CAL's would be required for
> Epicor, it's only one program hitting the DB. I really don't think CALs are
> an issue.
>
> In all honesty, the disc we got from Epicor is pre-keyed, I have installed
> it across 3 or 4 machines at one time without issue.
>
> --- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> , Ned
> <TechnoBabbly@...> wrote:
> >
> > The way I have always advised people on it is based on what I have gotten
> > when talking to anyone who sells CALs but not selling to me so they tend
> to
> > be a little more open, they are always going to try to sell you as many
> CALs
> > as possible.
> >
> > My interpretation from what I have learned is as follows.
> >
> > 1- The number of CALS you own is not a hard limit, it won't shut you out
> if
> > you exceed what you have for CALs.
> > 2- You need a license for each unique connection, so if you have users
> who
> > connect to a server based application, but not directly to the database,
> > then you need one CAL for that application, the application is the user.
> > - This would be something like Epicor where a user is connecting to
> > Epicor and the connection is made in the background as needed.
> > - This would not be an application like the APM Admin console where
> > the user creates the connection and holds the connection, and the local
> > program is what is making the connections to the DB.
> > 3- If you have users who are creating a connection to the DB through ODBC
> > then they will need a CAL.
> >
> > Service Connect, Replication and Enterprise Search would require 1CAL
> each,
> > and AFR would require 1 CAL per user.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Behalf Of
> > subzerovi
> > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 9:04 AM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Vantage] SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)
> >
> > I need to purchase a copy of SQL server for Service Connect, Replication,
> > AFR, and Enterprise Search. When getting the quote they asked how many
> > CAL's I would need and went on to explain that it depends on how many
> users
> > would be hitting the SQL databases through the listed ERP applications.
> >
> > For those of you using any of the mentioned products, how did you handle
> > your SQL licensing? I would use SQL express, but one of the mentioned
> > products required a full version.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> have
> > already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> > (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
> > Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/. <
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
> > (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> > (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2
I need to purchase a copy of SQL server for Service Connect, Replication, AFR, and Enterprise Search. When getting the quote they asked how many CAL's I would need and went on to explain that it depends on how many users would be hitting the SQL databases through the listed ERP applications.

For those of you using any of the mentioned products, how did you handle your SQL licensing? I would use SQL express, but one of the mentioned products required a full version.
3
I need to purchase a copy of SQL server for Service Connect, Replication, AFR, and Enterprise Search. When getting the quote they asked how many CAL's I would need and went on to explain that it depends on how many users would be hitting the SQL databases through the listed ERP applications.

For those of you using any of the mentioned products, how did you handle your SQL licensing? I would use SQL express, but one of the mentioned products required a full version.
4
The way I have always advised people on it is based on what I have gotten
when talking to anyone who sells CALs but not selling to me so they tend to
be a little more open, they are always going to try to sell you as many CALs
as possible.

My interpretation from what I have learned is as follows.

1- The number of CALS you own is not a hard limit, it won't shut you out if
you exceed what you have for CALs.
2- You need a license for each unique connection, so if you have users who
connect to a server based application, but not directly to the database,
then you need one CAL for that application, the application is the user.
- This would be something like Epicor where a user is connecting to
Epicor and the connection is made in the background as needed.
- This would not be an application like the APM Admin console where
the user creates the connection and holds the connection, and the local
program is what is making the connections to the DB.
3- If you have users who are creating a connection to the DB through ODBC
then they will need a CAL.

Service Connect, Replication and Enterprise Search would require 1CAL each,
and AFR would require 1 CAL per user.

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
subzerovi
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 9:04 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)

I need to purchase a copy of SQL server for Service Connect, Replication,
AFR, and Enterprise Search. When getting the quote they asked how many
CAL's I would need and went on to explain that it depends on how many users
would be hitting the SQL databases through the listed ERP applications.

For those of you using any of the mentioned products, how did you handle
your SQL licensing? I would use SQL express, but one of the mentioned
products required a full version.





------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links
5
We bought out SQL 08 license through Epicor and have their supplied disc. I guess I wasn't aware that any additional CAL's would be required for Epicor, it's only one program hitting the DB. I really don't think CALs are an issue.

In all honesty, the disc we got from Epicor is pre-keyed, I have installed it across 3 or 4 machines at one time without issue.

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, Ned <TechnoBabbly@...> wrote:
>
> The way I have always advised people on it is based on what I have gotten
> when talking to anyone who sells CALs but not selling to me so they tend to
> be a little more open, they are always going to try to sell you as many CALs
> as possible.
>
> My interpretation from what I have learned is as follows.
>
> 1- The number of CALS you own is not a hard limit, it won't shut you out if
> you exceed what you have for CALs.
> 2- You need a license for each unique connection, so if you have users who
> connect to a server based application, but not directly to the database,
> then you need one CAL for that application, the application is the user.
> - This would be something like Epicor where a user is connecting to
> Epicor and the connection is made in the background as needed.
> - This would not be an application like the APM Admin console where
> the user creates the connection and holds the connection, and the local
> program is what is making the connections to the DB.
> 3- If you have users who are creating a connection to the DB through ODBC
> then they will need a CAL.
>
> Service Connect, Replication and Enterprise Search would require 1CAL each,
> and AFR would require 1 CAL per user.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> subzerovi
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 9:04 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)
>
> I need to purchase a copy of SQL server for Service Connect, Replication,
> AFR, and Enterprise Search. When getting the quote they asked how many
> CAL's I would need and went on to explain that it depends on how many users
> would be hitting the SQL databases through the listed ERP applications.
>
> For those of you using any of the mentioned products, how did you handle
> your SQL licensing? I would use SQL express, but one of the mentioned
> products required a full version.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links
>
6
I'm sorry to rain on your parade but you don't get off that easy with Microsoft.

A user or device is counted even if going through a proxy, port consolidator or server. If you have for example, 20 users hitting on the SQL server database via your Epicor system then each user must have a license.

Personally, I find that processor licensing works better for us. You may want to take a look.

Also - be careful with Express and Workgroup editions, some features are not accessible which can make it much harder to administer or even inappropriate for a production environment.

John A. Hatcher
Manager of IS
Versa Products Co., Inc.
(201) 843-2400 x4148
(201) 843-2931 fax


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7
What section of the pirate bay is this CAL stuff? I can't seem to find
anything about it .....



JK, like John said Processor Licences work better.

*Jose C Gomez*
*Software Engineer*
*
*
*
*T: 904.469.1524 mobile
E: jose@...
http://www.josecgomez.com
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/josecgomez> <http://www.facebook.com/josegomez>
<http://www.google.com/profiles/jose.gomez> <http://www.twitter.com/joc85>
<http://www.josecgomez.com/professional-resume/>
<http://www.josecgomez.com/feed/>
<http://www.usdoingstuff.com>

*Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?*



On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Hatcher, John <johnh@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> I'm sorry to rain on your parade but you don't get off that easy with
> Microsoft.
>
> A user or device is counted even if going through a proxy, port
> consolidator or server. If you have for example, 20 users hitting on the
> SQL server database via your Epicor system then each user must have a
> license.
>
> Personally, I find that processor licensing works better for us. You may
> want to take a look.
>
> Also - be careful with Express and Workgroup editions, some features are
> not accessible which can make it much harder to administer or even
> inappropriate for a production environment.
>
> John A. Hatcher
> Manager of IS
> Versa Products Co., Inc.
> (201) 843-2400 x4148
> (201) 843-2931 fax
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
8
If you're using Epicor sold software then you don't have to worry about buying SQL Server. It's part of your license through Epicor.

I would like to clarify one of Ned's points. His point #2 is a common misconception within the industry. It doesn't matter if many users are connecting through one point of entry (be it an application or otherwise) all users making a connection need a CAL, if and only if, you license per server. Even if, technically speaking, the application is making the connection, all users then making a connection to the application need a client access CAL for SQL Server. Your license through epicor is per processor. Microsoft is switching licensing schemes in SQL 2012 to make it less confusing, hopefully.


________________________________
From: Anon <epicor-team@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:03 AM
Subject: [Vantage] Re: SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)


Â
We bought out SQL 08 license through Epicor and have their supplied disc. I guess I wasn't aware that any additional CAL's would be required for Epicor, it's only one program hitting the DB. I really don't think CALs are an issue.

In all honesty, the disc we got from Epicor is pre-keyed, I have installed it across 3 or 4 machines at one time without issue.

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, Ned <TechnoBabbly@...> wrote:
>
> The way I have always advised people on it is based on what I have gotten
> when talking to anyone who sells CALs but not selling to me so they tend to
> be a little more open, they are always going to try to sell you as many CALs
> as possible.
>
> My interpretation from what I have learned is as follows.
>
> 1- The number of CALS you own is not a hard limit, it won't shut you out if
> you exceed what you have for CALs.
> 2- You need a license for each unique connection, so if you have users who
> connect to a server based application, but not directly to the database,
> then you need one CAL for that application, the application is the user.
> - This would be something like Epicor where a user is connecting to
> Epicor and the connection is made in the background as needed.
> - This would not be an application like the APM Admin console where
> the user creates the connection and holds the connection, and the local
> program is what is making the connections to the DB.
> 3- If you have users who are creating a connection to the DB through ODBC
> then they will need a CAL.
>
> Service Connect, Replication and Enterprise Search would require 1CAL each,
> and AFR would require 1 CAL per user.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> subzerovi
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 9:04 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)
>
> I need to purchase a copy of SQL server for Service Connect, Replication,
> AFR, and Enterprise Search. When getting the quote they asked how many
> CAL's I would need and went on to explain that it depends on how many users
> would be hitting the SQL databases through the listed ERP applications.
>
> For those of you using any of the mentioned products, how did you handle
> your SQL licensing? I would use SQL express, but one of the mentioned
> products required a full version.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9
If anyone would like a reference to the clarification point, do a google search for multiplexing sql server


________________________________
From: Stephen Booth <stephenb927@...>
To: "vantage@yahoogroups.com" <vantage@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Re: SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)


Â
If you're using Epicor sold software then you don't have to worry about buying SQL Server. It's part of your license through Epicor.

I would like to clarify one of Ned's points. His point #2 is a common misconception within the industry. It doesn't matter if many users are connecting through one point of entry (be it an application or otherwise) all users making a connection need a CAL, if and only if, you license per server. Even if, technically speaking, the application is making the connection, all users then making a connection to the application need a client access CAL for SQL Server. Your license through epicor is per processor. Microsoft is switching licensing schemes in SQL 2012 to make it less confusing, hopefully.

________________________________
From: Anon <epicor-team@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:03 AM
Subject: [Vantage] Re: SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)


Â
We bought out SQL 08 license through Epicor and have their supplied disc. I guess I wasn't aware that any additional CAL's would be required for Epicor, it's only one program hitting the DB. I really don't think CALs are an issue.

In all honesty, the disc we got from Epicor is pre-keyed, I have installed it across 3 or 4 machines at one time without issue.

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, Ned <TechnoBabbly@...> wrote:
>
> The way I have always advised people on it is based on what I have gotten
> when talking to anyone who sells CALs but not selling to me so they tend to
> be a little more open, they are always going to try to sell you as many CALs
> as possible.
>
> My interpretation from what I have learned is as follows.
>
> 1- The number of CALS you own is not a hard limit, it won't shut you out if
> you exceed what you have for CALs.
> 2- You need a license for each unique connection, so if you have users who
> connect to a server based application, but not directly to the database,
> then you need one CAL for that application, the application is the user.
> - This would be something like Epicor where a user is connecting to
> Epicor and the connection is made in the background as needed.
> - This would not be an application like the APM Admin console where
> the user creates the connection and holds the connection, and the local
> program is what is making the connections to the DB.
> 3- If you have users who are creating a connection to the DB through ODBC
> then they will need a CAL.
>
> Service Connect, Replication and Enterprise Search would require 1CAL each,
> and AFR would require 1 CAL per user.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> subzerovi
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 9:04 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)
>
> I need to purchase a copy of SQL server for Service Connect, Replication,
> AFR, and Enterprise Search. When getting the quote they asked how many
> CAL's I would need and went on to explain that it depends on how many users
> would be hitting the SQL databases through the listed ERP applications.
>
> For those of you using any of the mentioned products, how did you handle
> your SQL licensing? I would use SQL express, but one of the mentioned
> products required a full version.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
10
I received this form my CAM about a month ago

“However, CALS are consider 2 for 1. So if you have 20 users, I only need to order 10 CALs.”

Scott

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Booth
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 8:46 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Re: SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)


If anyone would like a reference to the clarification point, do a google search for multiplexing sql server

________________________________
From: Stephen Booth <stephenb927@... <mailto:stephenb927%40yahoo.com> >
To: "vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> " <vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Re: SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)



If you're using Epicor sold software then you don't have to worry about buying SQL Server. It's part of your license through Epicor.

I would like to clarify one of Ned's points. His point #2 is a common misconception within the industry. It doesn't matter if many users are connecting through one point of entry (be it an application or otherwise) all users making a connection need a CAL, if and only if, you license per server. Even if, technically speaking, the application is making the connection, all users then making a connection to the application need a client access CAL for SQL Server. Your license through epicor is per processor. Microsoft is switching licensing schemes in SQL 2012 to make it less confusing, hopefully.

________________________________
From: Anon <epicor-team@... <mailto:epicor-team%40wisconsinconverting.com> >
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:03 AM
Subject: [Vantage] Re: SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)


We bought out SQL 08 license through Epicor and have their supplied disc. I guess I wasn't aware that any additional CAL's would be required for Epicor, it's only one program hitting the DB. I really don't think CALs are an issue.

In all honesty, the disc we got from Epicor is pre-keyed, I have installed it across 3 or 4 machines at one time without issue.

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> , Ned <TechnoBabbly@...> wrote:
>
> The way I have always advised people on it is based on what I have gotten
> when talking to anyone who sells CALs but not selling to me so they tend to
> be a little more open, they are always going to try to sell you as many CALs
> as possible.
>
> My interpretation from what I have learned is as follows.
>
> 1- The number of CALS you own is not a hard limit, it won't shut you out if
> you exceed what you have for CALs.
> 2- You need a license for each unique connection, so if you have users who
> connect to a server based application, but not directly to the database,
> then you need one CAL for that application, the application is the user.
> - This would be something like Epicor where a user is connecting to
> Epicor and the connection is made in the background as needed.
> - This would not be an application like the APM Admin console where
> the user creates the connection and holds the connection, and the local
> program is what is making the connections to the DB.
> 3- If you have users who are creating a connection to the DB through ODBC
> then they will need a CAL.
>
> Service Connect, Replication and Enterprise Search would require 1CAL each,
> and AFR would require 1 CAL per user.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> subzerovi
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 9:04 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Vantage] SQL Licensing (Off-Topic?)
>
> I need to purchase a copy of SQL server for Service Connect, Replication,
> AFR, and Enterprise Search. When getting the quote they asked how many
> CAL's I would need and went on to explain that it depends on how many users
> would be hitting the SQL databases through the listed ERP applications.
>
> For those of you using any of the mentioned products, how did you handle
> your SQL licensing? I would use SQL express, but one of the mentioned
> products required a full version.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]