@jgiese.wci can you send me the call number for this service call? I would like to look into it further.
Tech Support does create KB articles sometimes to help document workarounds, but those should also not become a perpetual crutch. I did check my current engineering release, and saw the graying out of the icons. I had not seen that before since I typically run the browser full screen.
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This actually came up during our implementation over a year ago. We were running Epicor on our conference room PC that has a relatively low resolution and high DPI setting. This combination meant that we couldn’t edit the home screen at all without lowering the DPI. As you might imagine, this took awhile to figure out.
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@jgiese.wci I looked into the apparent problem with the widgets. This turns out to be something that we fully know about AND is intentional.
The widgets are disabled when there is not enough room to actually work with them. When you make the screen too narrow, they become disabled. Simple as that. I did some experimenting with this with someone from the dev team and we found that:
- if you have your browser set to 100% zoom (ie… no zooming)
- you can take teh screen down to as low as about 1370 pixels wide. At that point the widgets are disabled
- Epicor recommends that for optimal use, you need to be on a screen that is at least 1440 pixels wide. Anything less than that will give sub-optimal performance
- BUT NOTE, if you ZOOM your browser, it changes what you can do. if you zoom to 200%, then your resolution is effectively cut in half, so even if you have a 1440 wide screen, when you zoom to 200 the screen becomes 720 wide, and it will be disabled again. (same in reverse… try setting zoom to 50% and it will work.
All this to say, we know about this “problem” but it is not something that we can necessarily control. If the user runs Kinetic in a browser at a sub-optimal resolution and/or zooms, there may be situations where the software does things like this.
(for those that dont know… below is google chrome zoom option… Microsoft Edge & Firefox have the same feature):
Yes, the current Kinetic reminds me (more than a little) of Vantage in the period between V8 and V8.03.
Since the architecture is significantly different from a prior version, I assumed it was going to be rough on users for a while.
In spite of this, I am still pretty optimistic about the general direction of Kinetic and have faith that Epicor will get most of it right… eventually.
(However, at sites where E10 is currently running… I’ve been recommending they drag their feet just a little longer before committing to the upgrade).
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Tim,
I think the issue that the end user doesn’t know why the options are disabled. There is no UI feedback, and it leaves users wondering if they are missing the proper permissions to edit the homepage, if they clicked something wrong, or any other number of issues. At the end of the day, I think we (customers) consider this a bug because it provides no feedback to the user and could be fixed with a simple message telling the user that they need to make their screen larger before that can add widgets.
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The Kinetic Client Requirements still state:
Second, the Kinetic Client (not Chrome) opens up in 1167x (still not 1300+)
So its a bug, until we remove the Client and go browser fully, or make the Client auto-start in full screen mode. Also update the requirements in the Hardware Sizing Guide.
As far as I know we are still buying 1024x to 1280x Raspberry Pie n-computes… because CAMs still reference the Hardware Sizing Guide as the ideal or minimum resolution for Kinetic.
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@timshuwy as Andrew described, that is the issue. I understand the purpose of the disable, totally get it, makes sense. It’s the user experience that is lacking. And I can’t justify putting in votes for something like that too many bigger fish to fry but all those idiosyncrasies are what are off-putting about Kinetic UI right now. I expressed that in the case CS0003367127 to the support rep, shortly before being asked to put in an idea to… make Kinetic better?
Do I put in a blanket idea “Make Kinetic UI user experience even moderately enjoyable”? Seems rude. Falls in line with this other case (CS0003317469) I entered for QuickShip for the same kinda crap. Save button is disabled because a field is missing data. Cool tell me which field when I click Save vs me spending 15 minutes trying to understand why the Save button is disabled. That or at least make it big and red required not a dinky little asterisk in the corner of a field in a see of options.
In this case I even provided the support rep what are considered widely accepted UX best practices
- Until filled it should be highlighted.
- Upon submission feedback should be generated.
- All validation should happen in the business objects server-side vs field validation being performed client-side. Client side validation can be manipulated.
Still asked to put in an idea.
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Another case where usability of the system comes into question but Epicor just puts it back on the user to know things CS0003368496.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand there it is. I know it’s not a black hole. I know from Controlled Release Ideas are looked at. But as the default response that’s why the general populace feels like it’s a black hole. Expectation “Enter all the ideas!” reality “but only 50, maybe”
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FYI all this is actually an active known usability bug. Support is correct in that the disabling behavior is intentional, but when this feature was introduced (active homepage, predates the transformation to kinetic) we included an indicator when you were in designer at a size that is too small to do layout. The indicator isn’t displaying, that’s the bug. The KB I believe predates that bug being introduced thus the confusion.
At any rate thank you for the feedback on the process here and on this specific thing, it will be fixed. We also do intend to re-evaluate the responsive breakpoint sizing which starts mobile responding a bit too early (smaller laptops + dpi scale factors can trigger it on devices where it’d be better if it did not).
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There are many recent threads on this forum and so much documented by many individuals here (some of it that cannot be re-produced step by step and therefore not truly something that can be fixed and some of it just ranting), but I wonder if it’s time to ask ourselves, “does what we consider acceptable align with our broader audience’s definition of acceptable and are we working on what is important to our audience?”
If the goal of every release and patch is to deliver new functionality and/or fixes to issues, are we spending enough time on the reported bugs/issues/complaints? Are we spending too much time trying to deliver new functionality and/or features? Furthermore, how do we prioritize bugs and complaints (ideas) centered around UI and user experience?
It’s almost as if (and I know there was a HUGE thread on the ideas portal), it’s almost as if the ideas portal is being used to try and prioritize bugs or behaviors that should not have been released to the public as acceptable. Or is the ideas portal being pushed because the agent may or may not know that what is being reported is truly a bug because they weren’t’ involved in the development process (i.e. the whole indicator message that you are in the designer at a size that is too small to do layout)? Is it possible that there are many more ideas that are truly PRBs? And even if we convert some ideas to PRBs, I would imagine it is extremely difficult for Epicor to prioritize one PRB as more important than another given Kinetic is so new and there aren’t several cases stacking up against each PRB to provide some sort of guidance.
Here’s a business case on how another company, Ubisoft, handled user experience and bugs. I know this isn’t an ERP system, but it’s still a billion-dollar company that relies on great user experience…
I overheard a few friends talking about a game called Rainbow Six Siege. They explained that it has been out for years and that every few months they release a new season of the game where they add new features and gameplay to keep it fresh and give users a reason to keep playing it. What I found interesting is that they were talking about a season called Operation Health. It was a season specifically aimed at fixing bugs. They introduced little to no new gameplay and only focused on bugs and user experience based on feedback from the community. What made them pause? When did it become apparent that they needed to pause and focus on UI and user experience? How did they prioritize each issue using feedback from the community?
I don’t know how to stop the 1000-ton freight train that is Epicor and pivot for a moment, focusing on UI and user experience, but it seems that the longer these things go unnoticed and also unpatched the more and more frustration there is. Nor do I know if that’s the right thing to do given the strategic goals of the company.
TLDR
I love and respect Epicor which is why I am being candid. I would love any criticisms and feedback on any of the points I mentioned and why they may be ignorant so I can learn more about business and running an ERP company and also so I can understand some business decisions that are being made.
Some potential thinking points for Epicor given the past few months of threads on here:
-
Reflect on what acceptable means to the user base… is what we are releasing acceptable?
-
What ticket or task is the highest priority to our users for UI experience and bugs and how do we categorize what is high priority v.s. what the user base feels is high priority… do they align?
Again, open to any and all responses. I love and respect Epicor. There’s a lot I don’t understand about running an ERP company.
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All I know is that our CAM said that all of Kinetic will work fine in 1024x and if you are on 1280 you are literally driving a Bugatti, 
case closed, now the developers need to deliver on that. That doesn’t mean changing the requirements that were marketed and people purchased devices for. It is also documented in the requirements docs.
Being sarcastic… But I think thats another point that Development and Sales and Support need to talk more closer, become one…
Great post Utah! I love that idea… Make it a 3mo Bug Squasher Sprint, nothing but bugs and usability. I am not even sure why they squeezed Dynamic Reports in, while Kinetic still needs resources to iron it out.
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This sounds strangely familiar…
"Sounds like a “Setup” Issue - “Not a Bug”… 
ummm… not getting defensive here… just informing you that I have been spending quite a few hours in Epicor Ideas, reading, organizing, and promoting them. It is not a black hole. we have several weekly meetings to go over the ideas, votes, etc. We have also changed our Product Management tool to use the Aha! platform for all our product management initiatives, goals, and projects. these all start with an “idea” that you posted.
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Thank you all for the valuable direct feedback. We are listening and appreciate it very much. While this isn’t the right forum to dig into the details, we do want to share that we have an ongoing initiative and cross-functional team focused on ensuring that everyone is able to successfully adopt the new web UI including all aspects from process to communications to product changes and of course quality. That initiative is driven by data including feedback from you all here and in 1x1 conversations, Epicor Ideas, bug reports, service conversations, telemetry and more.
You will see changes on a variety of fronts from this effort, but of course not all modifications will not be immediate. On the product front we are currently focused on refining the “Top 20 screens used by every client every day,” which account for the great bulk of system utilization as well as select key application wide areas for example improving rapid data entry in grids. As we go, we are also tackling common UI/UX concerns. We look forward to working with you all to bring everyone through the journey successfully and we know we can count on all of you to bring us the direct feedback we need to make that a reality.
We are planning on reaching out directly to many of you for 1 on 1 conversations, so don’t be surprised if you get a call. Thanks again for your positive feedback.
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Thank you sir! Also dont mind us sometimes. You must understand we have been burned alot, it is not fun going in circles, maybe not by Development… Maybe were all more frustrated with Support than anything.
I brought this to Warticki too, he brushed it off, and support is still support with 0 change for years
You said it yourself support needs to stop making every bug a idea, a bug that is a bug should be a bug, period, you are well aware of that Are there like internal KPIs that terminate someones employment if they log 10 bug tickets, hence everyone tries to mask it as an “Enhancement” (legit question, i’ve worked in a place where a bug type was feared upon losing your job)
PS: A Bug that existed since Vantage and that is confirmed a bug, should be treated as a Bug! I have a few where they said “Its broken since Vantage, make an idea” NO!
ALL THAT ASIDE: Appreciate you all letting us vent and considering some things. Respect!
I think we beat this enough PS Welcome @Vaibhav_Vohra to the thing called internet. 
We’re glad to have you. Epicor is better than SAP! 
What’s the saying. Your most loudest customer, is also sometimes your best lesson – in addition its passion mixed with frustration yelling.
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Good! Because I said “I know it’s not a black hole”, but was simply expressing why it might be perceived that way when it seems to just be a dumping ground. It is the default case in the switch statement of support.
At any rate this horse is dead it’s been beat, and sent to pasture. It’s time to close the thread but yes please reach out for usability feedback and petition internally to have the feedback button added back into the application so you get feedback from boots on the ground. We admins only know what the users are complaining about the most or that we have to field unnecessarily.
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