Anyone find it funny that our bills for support stay the same even if we are on an older version yet the level of support changes?
I mean if they are going to provide less of a service shouldn’t the bill reflect that as well?
For the record, I am okay receiving less support and priority for being on an older version, I get it.
Let’s plan an upgrade 
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I think the argument is, it cost Epicor more to support the older versions.
It’s a lot like what we see here in Detroit. There may be one or two houses on a whole block. That block still requires garbage collection, policing, snow removal, etc. but for fewer people.
While Epicor has stopped back-porting fixes, they still answer the phone with questions and usually try to find a solution, even if it turns out to be “fixed in newer version”, it still takes time. Time that they might not have to spend if we were a current company.
Where I will rant with you is that if Epicor wants customers to stay current, there should be tools that make it easy to do so:
- Source Code Control with Comparison capability
- Observability Tools (like Open Telemetry, etc.) to help us, and Epicor, understand how users are utilizing the software, get error notifications, and detail performance issues.
- Testing Tools to automate upgrade tasks
- A more robust artifact system (Solution Workbench) to help document changes to a system
- Less “Pet Building” tools
- Tooling that promotes developing in a Dev instance and moving to Test then Production instead of constantly changing Production on-the-fly.
- Allow the staging and live to be up at the same time then convert to live in real time like we do with BPMs.
- Allow Feature Flags for users
- A secrets management system to improve security across the board
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Epicor refers to this as the stick (they have provided plenty of carrots over the years to entice customers to get on a version that is actively supported).
Honestly I don’t disagree with them on this. Their support cost increases exponentially for every old version they continue to support. I think the current 2 year lifecycle is reasonable (each release is active for 2 years).
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I am fine with them not providing me the level of support that I originally received when we were on a “current release.”
But if they are going to provide less help because they can’t support an older release, don’t charge me for active support…
If we promise not to call them then I would agree with you. Support money is more than just support though, it is also work on the current version that we may use in the future.
Now, if you are proposing a “sustaining” level where you have no access to the phone or EpicCare (which costs Epicor money) but are willing to contribute to new development and reserving the right to upgrade to it when ready, then I could see something like that. 
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Are we going to see a Kinetic blockchain in the future?
Alternative Uses for Blockchain - Computerphile - YouTube
It’s not currently on Epicor Ideas…so it’s completely possible! 
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Why are we still getting charged maintenance for the legacy Hand Held module?
Epicor no longer includes that module for the EpiCare support folks VM’s, so help really is not available. Kinetic 2021.2 broke the display of handheld menus, and there is no plan to fix it. We’re told “You should buy EKW instead” at 20x the annual cost of handheld maintenance (sure, EKW is nice, I’ll give them that!). A day in the life as an Epicor customer!
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Agree on this one, I rose hell on this one that they are replacing HH with EMWWKKK or whatever it is today but we had to repurchase new. So for now I sit on it until they remove it from the product then I think I have more of a leg to stand on, on this.
It’s not really that MUCH less service. You can’t use the call line (who does anyways) and if you report new bugs you still might even get one-offs for them if they aren’t corrected in later versions.
Ultimately, you’re paying support to pre-buy the next versions of software perpetually and to continue development on that product. If you choose not to upgrade (which you’re paying for in support) honestly, that’s on your company, not Epicor’s fault. Then don’t pay support anymore and re-buy when you are ready for an upgrade. That is a valid option as well.
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Well put!
But are we? Many of the splashy new release features are additional SaaS modules that need to be purchased (rented) perpetually. Automation Studio, CPQ, EKW…
We did get REST 6 years ago in 10.1.500 and functions 3 years ago in 10.2.500, though, and there have been incremental little improvements in different modules. Every major improvement seems to be an extra purchase now. Gotta keep the VC’s fed!
IN the next release of Kinetic, there are a bunch of new features being added that are NOT extra cost. For example, the Epicor Idea https://epicor-manufacturing.ideas.aha.io/ideas/ERP-I-7 regarding Fulfillment Workbench working for MTO items, appears to be coming in the next release (safe harbor statement here). This is one of many new features. We are trying to improve how we respond to the Epicor IDEAS page.
But as @jgiese.wci said/clarified… your fee is NOT simply a support fee. that fee allows you to take the next release without re-purchasing the software. If you go off support, you cannot simply download the next release and upgrade.
Also if you go to https://epicor-manufacturing.ideas.aha.io/ideas?status=7109515884647826058 you can see ALL the Ideas that are currently accepted and under development. (Note that in development doesn’t mean it is coming in the NEXT release, but it is in the queue to be fixed in the next few releases).
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I think the framework upgrades are some heavy lifting that get taken for granted because there is no tangible user impact. Example. Without support $s we would… still be on Progress, we would still be on WCF, we would not be on .NetCore, we would not be moving to .Net6.0. Even going forward for the Kinetic UI, managing Angular updates and dependencies (a [insert a number of expletives] nightmare) will require a fair amount of manpower. I spent about 11 hours just trying to get from Angular 11 to 14, that’s behind a PC man hours, for a very very small code base.
I don’t like paying for support as much as the next guy, ask @josecgomez I’m about as cheap as they come. It’s especially painful, because I’m at a point in my knowledge of the software I rarely even use the support line. To the extent I jam in my own IL instruction changes and recompile bugs that I can’t get immediately fixed.
That being said we (my budget and company) pay our fair share to advance the product (even if I don’t agree with everything they do EVA/collaborate cough cough), continue to work with support on getting bugs fixed, take part in controlled release to help improve the product, present at Insights, test new features, do code level debugging, put Ideas in (sometimes reluctantly because its… a bug not a feature). We built and support this forum to help people get to the resources they need and to share common knowledge and have been blessed with getting a pretty strong internal employee presence something likely to not have happened with say Microsoft or SAP. Epicor operates a bit more like a small company in that way.
Since for the foreseeable future we are married to Epicor I make the most of it, immerse myself as much as possible, try to complain very little as much as some stuff bothers me #WIPisGarbage (BUT GETTING BETTER IN 2022.2 I THANK YOU)
Be a partner not just a customer, immerse yourself in what they are doing, and I promise you, your outlook on support costs will be much different (even if I think 21% or whatever we’re at now is stiff 
)
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You get my vote for continuing to lead this forum! hahaha 
Yes… Epicor does see our customers as continued partners in going forward. We don’t always make the right decisions for everyone. Like it or not, we did build EVA and Collaborate, Collaborate has additional new features to make it better coming this release. Why? because the industry demands that we have a collaboration tool. But at the end of the day, the software that YOU use is the most important to us, and we are continuing to keep up with the technology just as you are.
Funny (ok… maybe sad) Sidenote… we have a customer who recently complained that they went off contract back in 2017 because “we would no longer support them with upgrades”… we looked into it. They were running on an old version of a ERP legacy platform that IS still maintained AND SUPPORTED by Epicor, BUT they stopped taking upgrades back in 1999 (yes… 24 years ago). Their version of the software was originally designed to run on Windows NT which Microsoft no longer supports. They were running it on Windows 2016 which our software was never certified for. Now they want help. Hmm… I wonder why they are having challenges?
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You have to submit a license deactivation form in wayfinder and they will stop charging you for it.
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@jgiese.wci - Very well said. It’s easy to forget. It’s also in Epicor’s interest to stay current on the technology stack. Good luck acquiring new customers with ABL / Progress! While we love to bash and vent, it’s still a very capable solution with a ton of flexibility that’ll work for most mfg companies.
@timshuwy - Great! Looking forward to it. We champion these improvements internally to help get buy-in for the pain of upgrade testing. I hope that Epicor keeps supporting this partnership, although sometime we feel taken for granted by Epicor. We’re fortunate to get you spending time on the forum helping us out too!
If we de-activate the license, Epicor will also de-activate the module too. We’ll have to keep paying maintenance for Handheld until we move to something else, and can then retire them. It’s not a big chunk of change, but still doesn’t feel right paying for an abandoned module. Anyone need some old handheld hardware?
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That’s not always true (I think) you bought the license for your version it will stay active until you get a “new” license for later versions. (At least that’s my experience)
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If you are no longer using a module, you can deactivate it and stop paying maintenance. We deactivated handheld last year without buying anything.
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