Going Virtual Blank Title 89476

Yahoo Archive
1
We are using VMWare to host a test system for us, I have also used the converter tool VMware provides to provide a disaster recovery server for Vantage (and other servers). Using it for testing upgrades and BPMs has been great - very easy to revert back to the base. performance seems to be fine, although the load on the server is very small.

Exchange and SQL really should not be virtualized yet.

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Vic Drecchio" <vic.drecchio@...> wrote:
>
> MS does not recommend Exchange be virtualized because it's too
> processor/memory/transactional intensive.
>
>
>
> Last time I checked Vantage was equally hungry for resources.
>
>
>
> I'm not a fan of virtualization (yet) for transactional systems. Maybe
> in a few years....
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Brian W. Spolarich
> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 9:41 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Going Virtual
>
>
>
>
>
> So would I, but coming up with a consolidation cost-benefit
> justification when I have existing hardware that 'works' is difficult.
>
> I have a planned upgrade to Exchange 2010 this year, and that's an
> opportunity to buy hardware. But Microsoft doesn't really recommend you
> 'get started with Virtualization' with Exchange. :-)
>
> -bws
>
> --
> Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix /
> Picometrix
> bspolarich@...
> <mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com> ~ 734-864-5618 ~
> www.advancedphotonix.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Behalf Of batlou
> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 9:24 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Vantage] Re: Going Virtual
>
> We are also looking to do this, perhaps when we move to Version 9 at the
> end of 2010. Currently we are reviewing and testing VMWare. We have
> already virtualized some of our Dev and Test servers.
>
> Anyone use VMWare for Vantage, SQL and/or Exchange boxes? Would love to
> trim our servers from 2 racks with 23 servers to roughly 5 or 6 with 2
> Dell iSCSI Drive Arrays.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
2
We are currently running version 8.03. I am looking at adding a new server and moving to version 9. My plan is to use this new server as our first step in moving to virtualization. The server has 2 Xeon processors and 32G RAM. We will be running 2 virtual servers on it, one for Vantage and the other for file, print, DHCP, DNS, etc.

Next year we will add a second similar server and a SAN and start moving applications from our other 3 servers (Solidworks, Exchange, file server) onto the virtual servers.

Any concerns with running Vantage in this type of environment?

Mark
3
I curious about your cost model. I'd love to move to virtualization, but in small manufacturing companies its hard to pry loose enough cash to make the argument, so I wind up doing things incrementally (a server here, a server there).

What are you doing for SAN?

-brian

--
Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix / Picometrix
    bspolarich@... ~ 734-864-5618 ~ www.advancedphotonix.com

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:55 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Going Virtual

We are currently running version 8.03. I am looking at adding a new server and moving to version 9. My plan is to use this new server as our first step in moving to virtualization. The server has 2 Xeon processors and 32G RAM. We will be running 2 virtual servers on it, one for Vantage and the other for file, print, DHCP, DNS, etc.

Next year we will add a second similar server and a SAN and start moving applications from our other 3 servers (Solidworks, Exchange, file server) onto the virtual servers.

Any concerns with running Vantage in this type of environment?

Mark



------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links
4
Mark

We are currently running our Vantage app servers on virtual servers. So far everthing is running great with no problems. The only thing I would recomend is running virtual software that will allow you to allocate enough hardware resources to the app server.


Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:54 AM, "Mark" <mtellefson@...> wrote:

We are currently running version 8.03. I am looking at adding a new server and moving to version 9. My plan is to use this new server as our first step in moving to virtualization. The server has 2 Xeon processors and 32G RAM. We will be running 2 virtual servers on it, one for Vantage and the other for file, print, DHCP, DNS, etc.

Next year we will add a second similar server and a SAN and start moving applications from our other 3 servers (Solidworks, Exchange, file server) onto the virtual servers.

Any concerns with running Vantage in this type of environment?

Mark




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
5
Hey Brian,
I know how you feel. As a one man department, I have always just
brought in a server when we NEED one. I don't have the specs on the SAN
but was given a ballpark figure of $26k for 1.5TB IBM SAN. My problem
is that all my servers are 3 to 5 years old and the idea of 3 to 5 days
of downtime is simply not acceptible. My plan is to replace the 2
servers every 4 years so if I alternate them, every 2 years we can
budget for a $7k or $8k server. No more waiting for them to die before
we replace them.

I just proposed it to the GM and was told to get a quote for both
servers, SAN, etc....keeping my fingers crossed.

________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Brian W. Spolarich
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:57 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Going Virtual




I curious about your cost model. I'd love to move to virtualization, but
in small manufacturing companies its hard to pry loose enough cash to
make the argument, so I wind up doing things incrementally (a server
here, a server there).

What are you doing for SAN?

-brian

--
Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix /
Picometrix
bspolarich@...
<mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com> ~ 734-864-5618 ~
www.advancedphotonix.com

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:55 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Vantage] Going Virtual

We are currently running version 8.03. I am looking at adding a new
server and moving to version 9. My plan is to use this new server as our
first step in moving to virtualization. The server has 2 Xeon processors
and 32G RAM. We will be running 2 virtual servers on it, one for Vantage
and the other for file, print, DHCP, DNS, etc.

Next year we will add a second similar server and a SAN and start moving
applications from our other 3 servers (Solidworks, Exchange, file
server) onto the virtual servers.

Any concerns with running Vantage in this type of environment?

Mark

------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo> ! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
6
We virtualized everything but one DC and a SQL server almost 3 years ago on Virtual Center 3, and at the time chose a NetApp FAS 270 with Fiber Channel, iSCSI for failover and CIFS for a NAS on 3TB of RAW space RAID 6 on 14 drives. If I had to do it all over today I would probably choose EqualLogic for the SAN. I have seen their demos many times and it is so easy to setup that type of SAN with iSCSI and add more storage, etc. They are very cost effective too! The only drawback to what we have now, is they do not have NAS built in. They also do not offer de-duplication.

Joe Luster
Network Administrator
Cold Jet, LLC
455 Wards Corner Road
Loveland, Ohio 45140
USA
+1 513-831-3211 x308 (office)
+1 513-831-1209 (fax)
www.coldjet.com<http://www.coldjet.com>
[cid:image001.jpg@01CADC90.883D71D0]
Setting industry standards in dry ice technology and solutions for over 20 years.

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Tellefson
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 11:13 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Going Virtual



Hey Brian,
I know how you feel. As a one man department, I have always just
brought in a server when we NEED one. I don't have the specs on the SAN
but was given a ballpark figure of $26k for 1.5TB IBM SAN. My problem
is that all my servers are 3 to 5 years old and the idea of 3 to 5 days
of downtime is simply not acceptible. My plan is to replace the 2
servers every 4 years so if I alternate them, every 2 years we can
budget for a $7k or $8k server. No more waiting for them to die before
we replace them.

I just proposed it to the GM and was told to get a quote for both
servers, SAN, etc....keeping my fingers crossed.

________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Brian W. Spolarich
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:57 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Going Virtual

I curious about your cost model. I'd love to move to virtualization, but
in small manufacturing companies its hard to pry loose enough cash to
make the argument, so I wind up doing things incrementally (a server
here, a server there).

What are you doing for SAN?

-brian

--
Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix /
Picometrix
bspolarich@...<mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com>
<mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com> ~ 734-864-5618 ~
www.advancedphotonix.com

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:55 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Vantage] Going Virtual

We are currently running version 8.03. I am looking at adding a new
server and moving to version 9. My plan is to use this new server as our
first step in moving to virtualization. The server has 2 Xeon processors
and 32G RAM. We will be running 2 virtual servers on it, one for Vantage
and the other for file, print, DHCP, DNS, etc.

Next year we will add a second similar server and a SAN and start moving
applications from our other 3 servers (Solidworks, Exchange, file
server) onto the virtual servers.

Any concerns with running Vantage in this type of environment?

Mark

------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo> ! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7
I am in the process of designing a virtual environment here with
failover and offsite backup. The plan is to go from the current 10
servers down to 3. I believe I am going to use a storage solution from
Scale Computing rather than a traditional SAN. Scale looks to provide
some great advantages, especially when you need to grow.



Tim Dines

Information Technology

Steel Parts Manufacturing, Inc.

801 Berryman Pike

Tipton, IN 46072

Direct: 765-675-5201

Cell: 765-437-1402



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Tellefson
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 11:13 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Going Virtual





Hey Brian,
I know how you feel. As a one man department, I have always just
brought in a server when we NEED one. I don't have the specs on the SAN
but was given a ballpark figure of $26k for 1.5TB IBM SAN. My problem
is that all my servers are 3 to 5 years old and the idea of 3 to 5 days
of downtime is simply not acceptible. My plan is to replace the 2
servers every 4 years so if I alternate them, every 2 years we can
budget for a $7k or $8k server. No more waiting for them to die before
we replace them.

I just proposed it to the GM and was told to get a quote for both
servers, SAN, etc....keeping my fingers crossed.

________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf
Of Brian W. Spolarich
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:57 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Going Virtual

I curious about your cost model. I'd love to move to virtualization, but
in small manufacturing companies its hard to pry loose enough cash to
make the argument, so I wind up doing things incrementally (a server
here, a server there).

What are you doing for SAN?

-brian

--
Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix /
Picometrix
bspolarich@...
<mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com>
<mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com> ~ 734-864-5618 ~
www.advancedphotonix.com

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:55 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Vantage] Going Virtual

We are currently running version 8.03. I am looking at adding a new
server and moving to version 9. My plan is to use this new server as our
first step in moving to virtualization. The server has 2 Xeon processors
and 32G RAM. We will be running 2 virtual servers on it, one for Vantage
and the other for file, print, DHCP, DNS, etc.

Next year we will add a second similar server and a SAN and start moving
applications from our other 3 servers (Solidworks, Exchange, file
server) onto the virtual servers.

Any concerns with running Vantage in this type of environment?

Mark

------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/> >
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo> ! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
8
Thanks for all the feedback. I am sticking pretty close to the
recommendations from our local supplier but your input helps raise some
questions that are better asked now than when it is too late. In the
past I have setup most of my own servers but this is getting over my
head and I want to make sure it is configured correctly from the start.
I have a few too many irons in the fire the way it is.

________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dines, Tim
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:13 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Going Virtual




I am in the process of designing a virtual environment here with
failover and offsite backup. The plan is to go from the current 10
servers down to 3. I believe I am going to use a storage solution from
Scale Computing rather than a traditional SAN. Scale looks to provide
some great advantages, especially when you need to grow.

Tim Dines

Information Technology

Steel Parts Manufacturing, Inc.

801 Berryman Pike

Tipton, IN 46072

Direct: 765-675-5201

Cell: 765-437-1402

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf
Of Mark Tellefson
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 11:13 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Going Virtual

Hey Brian,
I know how you feel. As a one man department, I have always just
brought in a server when we NEED one. I don't have the specs on the SAN
but was given a ballpark figure of $26k for 1.5TB IBM SAN. My problem
is that all my servers are 3 to 5 years old and the idea of 3 to 5 days
of downtime is simply not acceptible. My plan is to replace the 2
servers every 4 years so if I alternate them, every 2 years we can
budget for a $7k or $8k server. No more waiting for them to die before
we replace them.

I just proposed it to the GM and was told to get a quote for both
servers, SAN, etc....keeping my fingers crossed.

________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf
Of Brian W. Spolarich
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:57 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Going Virtual

I curious about your cost model. I'd love to move to virtualization, but
in small manufacturing companies its hard to pry loose enough cash to
make the argument, so I wind up doing things incrementally (a server
here, a server there).

What are you doing for SAN?

-brian

--
Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix /
Picometrix
bspolarich@...
<mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com>
<mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com>
<mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com> ~ 734-864-5618 ~
www.advancedphotonix.com

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:55 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Vantage] Going Virtual

We are currently running version 8.03. I am looking at adding a new
server and moving to version 9. My plan is to use this new server as our
first step in moving to virtualization. The server has 2 Xeon processors
and 32G RAM. We will be running 2 virtual servers on it, one for Vantage
and the other for file, print, DHCP, DNS, etc.

Next year we will add a second similar server and a SAN and start moving
applications from our other 3 servers (Solidworks, Exchange, file
server) onto the virtual servers.

Any concerns with running Vantage in this type of environment?

Mark

------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/> > >
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages> >
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo> > ! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9
+1 on the one man IT dept, I feel your pain. Why in the world are you blowing $26k on a 1.5 TB SAN?!?!? Especially as a 1 man IT dept. Those SANs need babysitting and LUN provisioning etc. etc. How much after hours time are you looking to punch?

It used to be you needed high spindle counts to achieve good IOPS, thus requiring a SAN. But Solid State Disks have pretty much negated that requirement. Put your storage bucks elsewhere.

If you're thinking you need a beefy SAN for virtualization or clustering I urge you to think again. Even modest rackmount servers have enough room for Direct Attached Storage. Run your OS array in RAID1 and put 4 disks in RAID10 for your virtual disks, with 1 global hotspare for safety. How much of that 26k have we eaten into so far?

If clustering is needed you still don't need that beefy SAN. Decent DAS with an iSCSI appliance for quorum will fit your bill. If you have any of that $26k left at this point send it to me!

Although if you have money in the budget to blow on a SAN, then by all means knock yourself out. I wish I did.

Virtualization can really help with your goal of upgrading hardware every 2 years or so. Even if you only run a single virtual machine on top of a single physical machine, that can really simplify the transition to new hardware down the road. You won't have to worry about drivers for the most part since you are migrating to the same virtual environment. Most virtualizaion solutions allow for streamlined copy migrations with very little downtime.

In my experience virtualization can be a good thing when properly applied. Especially when the servers are low duty like file and print or domain controllers. The power consumption benefits alone can be staggering when you consider the average server is sucking down oh say 600watts 24x7x365. Personally I can't yet bring myself to virtualize any of my SQL servers. Most of the literature and experiences I have come across suggest the overhead is minimal, but call me old fashioned.
Cheers,
Jared


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Tellefson" <mtellefson@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Brian,
> I know how you feel. As a one man department, I have always just
> brought in a server when we NEED one. I don't have the specs on the SAN
> but was given a ballpark figure of $26k for 1.5TB IBM SAN. My problem
> is that all my servers are 3 to 5 years old and the idea of 3 to 5 days
> of downtime is simply not acceptible. My plan is to replace the 2
> servers every 4 years so if I alternate them, every 2 years we can
> budget for a $7k or $8k server. No more waiting for them to die before
> we replace them.
>
> I just proposed it to the GM and was told to get a quote for both
> servers, SAN, etc....keeping my fingers crossed.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Brian W. Spolarich
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:57 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Going Virtual
>
>
>
>
> I curious about your cost model. I'd love to move to virtualization, but
> in small manufacturing companies its hard to pry loose enough cash to
> make the argument, so I wind up doing things incrementally (a server
> here, a server there).
>
> What are you doing for SAN?
>
> -brian
>
> --
> Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix /
> Picometrix
> bspolarich@...
> <mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com> ~ 734-864-5618 ~
> www.advancedphotonix.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Behalf Of Mark
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:55 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Vantage] Going Virtual
>
> We are currently running version 8.03. I am looking at adding a new
> server and moving to version 9. My plan is to use this new server as our
> first step in moving to virtualization. The server has 2 Xeon processors
> and 32G RAM. We will be running 2 virtual servers on it, one for Vantage
> and the other for file, print, DHCP, DNS, etc.
>
> Next year we will add a second similar server and a SAN and start moving
> applications from our other 3 servers (Solidworks, Exchange, file
> server) onto the virtual servers.
>
> Any concerns with running Vantage in this type of environment?
>
> Mark
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
> and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo> ! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
10
We are also looking to do this, perhaps when we move to Version 9 at the end of 2010. Currently we are reviewing and testing VMWare. We have already virtualized some of our Dev and Test servers.

Anyone use VMWare for Vantage, SQL and/or Exchange boxes? Would love to trim our servers from 2 racks with 23 servers to roughly 5 or 6 with 2 Dell iSCSI Drive Arrays.

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Tellefson" <mtellefson@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the feedback. I am sticking pretty close to the
> recommendations from our local supplier but your input helps raise some
> questions that are better asked now than when it is too late. In the
> past I have setup most of my own servers but this is getting over my
> head and I want to make sure it is configured correctly from the start.
> I have a few too many irons in the fire the way it is.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Dines, Tim
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:13 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Going Virtual
>
>
>
>
> I am in the process of designing a virtual environment here with
> failover and offsite backup. The plan is to go from the current 10
> servers down to 3. I believe I am going to use a storage solution from
> Scale Computing rather than a traditional SAN. Scale looks to provide
> some great advantages, especially when you need to grow.
>
> Tim Dines
>
> Information Technology
>
> Steel Parts Manufacturing, Inc.
>
> 801 Berryman Pike
>
> Tipton, IN 46072
>
> Direct: 765-675-5201
>
> Cell: 765-437-1402
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Behalf
> Of Mark Tellefson
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 11:13 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Going Virtual
>
> Hey Brian,
> I know how you feel. As a one man department, I have always just
> brought in a server when we NEED one. I don't have the specs on the SAN
> but was given a ballpark figure of $26k for 1.5TB IBM SAN. My problem
> is that all my servers are 3 to 5 years old and the idea of 3 to 5 days
> of downtime is simply not acceptible. My plan is to replace the 2
> servers every 4 years so if I alternate them, every 2 years we can
> budget for a $7k or $8k server. No more waiting for them to die before
> we replace them.
>
> I just proposed it to the GM and was told to get a quote for both
> servers, SAN, etc....keeping my fingers crossed.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Behalf
> Of Brian W. Spolarich
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:57 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Going Virtual
>
> I curious about your cost model. I'd love to move to virtualization, but
> in small manufacturing companies its hard to pry loose enough cash to
> make the argument, so I wind up doing things incrementally (a server
> here, a server there).
>
> What are you doing for SAN?
>
> -brian
>
> --
> Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix /
> Picometrix
> bspolarich@...
> <mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com>
> <mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com>
> <mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com> ~ 734-864-5618 ~
> www.advancedphotonix.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Behalf Of Mark
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:55 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Vantage] Going Virtual
>
> We are currently running version 8.03. I am looking at adding a new
> server and moving to version 9. My plan is to use this new server as our
> first step in moving to virtualization. The server has 2 Xeon processors
> and 32G RAM. We will be running 2 virtual servers on it, one for Vantage
> and the other for file, print, DHCP, DNS, etc.
>
> Next year we will add a second similar server and a SAN and start moving
> applications from our other 3 servers (Solidworks, Exchange, file
> server) onto the virtual servers.
>
> Any concerns with running Vantage in this type of environment?
>
> Mark
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
> and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/> > >
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages> >
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo> > ! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
11
If you're evaluating VMWare using their free tools, you're missing out
on one of the most important features virtualization can offer - the
ability to have a "guest" machine automatically transfer to a different
"host" should it's own host fail. I believe this functionality is
provided for in the VMotion product. That being said, I used VMWare to
host test-servers for our upgrade from Vantage 6 to Vantage 8, and after
we upgraded I converted my Vantage 6 server into a virtual machine for
historical purposes.

You might want to look into RedHat's upcoming Enterprise Virtualization
product. From what I've seen/read, RHEV appears to offer features
similar to those of VMWare at a much lower entry cost and reduced
long-term TCO.

Whatever you choose for the virtualization environment, you're going to
absolutely need external storage (unless you don't care about
fault-tolerance), fast connections to the external storage, and high-RPM
disks in the storage platform to get the most reliable performance and
fail-over functionality.

--Ari

________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of batlou
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 8:24 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Going Virtual




We are also looking to do this, perhaps when we move to Version 9 at the
end of 2010. Currently we are reviewing and testing VMWare. We have
already virtualized some of our Dev and Test servers.

Anyone use VMWare for Vantage, SQL and/or Exchange boxes? Would love to
trim our servers from 2 racks with 23 servers to roughly 5 or 6 with 2
Dell iSCSI Drive Arrays.

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ,
"Mark Tellefson" <mtellefson@...> wrote:




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
12
So would I, but coming up with a consolidation cost-benefit justification when I have existing hardware that 'works' is difficult.

I have a planned upgrade to Exchange 2010 this year, and that's an opportunity to buy hardware. But Microsoft doesn't really recommend you 'get started with Virtualization' with Exchange. :-)

-bws

--
Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix / Picometrix
    bspolarich@... ~ 734-864-5618 ~ www.advancedphotonix.com

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of batlou
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 9:24 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Going Virtual

We are also looking to do this, perhaps when we move to Version 9 at the end of 2010. Currently we are reviewing and testing VMWare. We have already virtualized some of our Dev and Test servers.

Anyone use VMWare for Vantage, SQL and/or Exchange boxes? Would love to trim our servers from 2 racks with 23 servers to roughly 5 or 6 with 2 Dell iSCSI Drive Arrays.
13
MS does not recommend Exchange be virtualized because it's too
processor/memory/transactional intensive.



Last time I checked Vantage was equally hungry for resources.



I'm not a fan of virtualization (yet) for transactional systems. Maybe
in a few years....



________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Brian W. Spolarich
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 9:41 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Going Virtual





So would I, but coming up with a consolidation cost-benefit
justification when I have existing hardware that 'works' is difficult.

I have a planned upgrade to Exchange 2010 this year, and that's an
opportunity to buy hardware. But Microsoft doesn't really recommend you
'get started with Virtualization' with Exchange. :-)

-bws

--
Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix /
Picometrix
bspolarich@...
<mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com> ~ 734-864-5618 ~
www.advancedphotonix.com

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of batlou
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 9:24 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Going Virtual

We are also looking to do this, perhaps when we move to Version 9 at the
end of 2010. Currently we are reviewing and testing VMWare. We have
already virtualized some of our Dev and Test servers.

Anyone use VMWare for Vantage, SQL and/or Exchange boxes? Would love to
trim our servers from 2 racks with 23 servers to roughly 5 or 6 with 2
Dell iSCSI Drive Arrays.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
14
Exchange 2010 has a revamped database architecture that dramatically reduces I/O load, and thus hardware requirements. You can run it on SATA JBOD configs (no RAID, striping, etc.) and use its internal storage group replication to provide protection from disk failure. Basically they're looking at enabling Exchange to scale for very large multi-tenant environments ("cloud" hosting) running on very cheap hardware (Google model).

The big change is to change the database format from one big table for messages, one big table for calendars, etc. to one set of tables per mailbox. Lots more tables per database, but I/O is localized so you don't need to provide so many spindles to keep up with demand.

So it is supported for virtualization, but they say in their tech brief its probably not the place to 'get your feet wet' with virtualization.

-bws

--
Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix / Picometrix
    bspolarich@... ~ 734-864-5618 ~ www.advancedphotonix.com


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Vic Drecchio
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 9:55 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Going Virtual

MS does not recommend Exchange be virtualized because it's too
processor/memory/transactional intensive.



Last time I checked Vantage was equally hungry for resources.



I'm not a fan of virtualization (yet) for transactional systems. Maybe
in a few years....



________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Brian W. Spolarich
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 9:41 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Going Virtual





So would I, but coming up with a consolidation cost-benefit
justification when I have existing hardware that 'works' is difficult.

I have a planned upgrade to Exchange 2010 this year, and that's an
opportunity to buy hardware. But Microsoft doesn't really recommend you
'get started with Virtualization' with Exchange. :-)

-bws

--
Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix /
Picometrix
bspolarich@...
<mailto:bspolarich%40advancedphotonix.com> ~ 734-864-5618 ~
www.advancedphotonix.com

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of batlou
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 9:24 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Going Virtual

We are also looking to do this, perhaps when we move to Version 9 at the
end of 2010. Currently we are reviewing and testing VMWare. We have
already virtualized some of our Dev and Test servers.

Anyone use VMWare for Vantage, SQL and/or Exchange boxes? Would love to
trim our servers from 2 racks with 23 servers to roughly 5 or 6 with 2
Dell iSCSI Drive Arrays.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links