Holding out on support agreement

15% of the "purchase price" or 15% of the "current price" for your modules? I believe that unless you specifically negotiate a "freeze" on the base price the 15% applies to the standard language is for it to be the current price, each year. Meaning if you got some steep discounts ("trade-in" allowance on other software, etc...) the maintenance cost may be higher than expected from simply calculating 15% of what you paid. Inflation in the list price will also tend to raise the maintenance annually. But I agree, this has been the same with every major system I've managed and is pretty standard. Also negotiable but mainly only in the pre-purchase phase where you have the most leverage. Although the sales person will not mention maintenance much it is just something that has to be assumed and put in the on-going operating cost calculations for any system payback analysis. Be glad there is no clause in the agreement requiring maintenance in order to keep using the software as some vendors have tried to do (complete with timebombs and new license keys each year linked to an expire date).

On the MS side we don't do "software assurance" and instead opt for living with the current version for at least 4 years at which time the total cost saved exceeds total re-buy. We don't use 90% of the features in Office (WordPad is prefectly adequate for anything we use Word for) so the latest features are no incentive to keep up to the newest version.

-Todd C.


-----Original Message-----
From: Lydia Coffman [mailto:lcoffman@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:46 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Holding out on support agreement


Check your contract, but it is usually in the neighborhood of 15% of
purchase price. It'll make you fall over if you aren't expecting
it--sometimes when you are! If it is any comfort, that is the standard rate
for almost all major software packages these days, but often you can
negotiate a lower rate at the time of purchase and make it stick for up to
five years.

Course, with Microsoft you have to buy all new software every time and it is
usually more than the last version.

Lydia

-----Original Message-----
From: bbelzer42 [mailto:bbelzer@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:04 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Holding out on support agreement


How much is the renewal of the service agreement? Ours isn't quite up
yet.

Thanks,
Ben


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Coffman <lcoffman@c...> wrote:
> A lot of what drives us in the upgrade path is customer demand. We are
> AS9100 certified, and that creates demand as well. Customers want us to
> capture information (metrics)AND share it with them. We teetered on the
> edge of being too small to deal with those items for a while, now we are
> growing and had better keep up while we can.
>
> When we entered the "Lean Manufacturing" area, a set of goals and
> expectations was created for the entire company as well as individual
> departments. Excel spreadsheets can't capture all of the info
anymore. We
> have become not just manufacturerers, but data farmers as well.
When one of
> the "big" companies wants us to comply with their requests or drop
off of
> their vendor list, we can only comply--or die. Vantage, and its
upgrades,
> is what puts us in the place where we can comply. (This could easily
be ANY
> OTHER SOFTWARE THE COMPANY CHOOSES TO USE.)
>
> Yep, sometimes patches suck, and so does the extra work and training to
> upgrade. But having to plan and conduct training is part of what
keeps me
> aware of what is going on in every department. If nothing else I
learn how
> they are "working around" the real way Vantage is meant to be.
Training also
> brings every person who uses the software into a safe environment to
discuss
> what works for them and what doesn't, what they need, what they wish
for, in
> the software.
>
> My two bits (which is actually a quarter!)
> Lydia
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gavin Davidson [mailto:gavinjd68@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:20 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement
>
>
> If you are on this list presumbaly your company has
> decided that Vantage / Vista is the tool that they you
> are to use to run your business.
>
> The plain fact is that if you are smart your software
> implementation should not stop - once you have
> installed and implemented Vantage you should really
> create a business development team that meets at least
> once a month to discuss ways to improve your business.
>
> This team should be responsible for gathering
> information from users, customers and vendors,
> compiling the data and then make recommendations on
> how to further improve the business. Software is only
> one part of this - but it is the vehicle to help drive
> your business forward.
>
> If you don't do this, you can be damn sure your
> competition is.
>
> One last thought. How many of you have seen your
> companies business plan? Do they have one? While it
> probably contains some sensitive information theres no
> reason why some of it cant be shared with virtually
> the whole company - its all part of the same process.
>
> Continuous improvement doesn't only apply to the shop
> floor...
>
> Gavin
>
> > plans to stand still? The only way I could see to
> > stop maintenance would be if I was certain right now
> > that Vantage 8.0 will be the wrong system and
> > prepared to bank away the support costs towards a
> > new system in a few years.
> >
> > If cash flow is tight then Epicor, and your CAM,
> > have every incentive to keep you "in the fold" - not
> > the least of which is the possibility to sell add-on
> > modules - and to preserve the revenue stream
> > (something investors look at carefully). Talk to
> > them so you can weigh all your options.
> >
> > -Todd C.
> > PS - I no longer have any investment position in
> > EPIC.
> >
> >
> >




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
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Yahoo! Groups Links







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am holding out on paying for the support agreement that is currently due
to Epicor. We are on 6.1 with no intention of upgrading to 8 anytime soon.
We have always been current with our support agreement, but cash flow at our
company was tight when the agreement came up for renewal and it got me
thinking about the benefits that I receive for the cost - especially knowing
that our company will most likely be on 6.1 for a few years. It is very rare
for our company to actually use Epicor for support and with our upgrade to
8.0 not in the near future I would love to hear from the group regarding the
pros and cons of having the support agreement. I am ready to write the check
but am on the fence???

Thanks in advance,
I've seen companies not pay support until they were ready to
go to
the next version. At that point Epicor has always just let
you pay up
what you hadn't paid in the past. Of course that was a few
years ago.
Their policy could have changed since. Might want to just
ask them what
they are willing to do for you, or just wait when you are
ready to ask them at that point.

HTH,

M. Manasa Reddy
ERP Specialist
Crestview Aerospace Corporation
Email: mreddy@...
Phone: (850) 682-2746 x 272


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of James Smith
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 8:23 AM
To: Vantage (E-mail)
Subject: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement


I am holding out on paying for the support agreement that
is currently due
to Epicor. We are on 6.1 with no intention of upgrading to
8 anytime soon.
We have always been current with our support agreement,
but cash flow at our
company was tight when the agreement came up for renewal
and it got me
thinking about the benefits that I receive for the cost -
especially knowing
that our company will most likely be on 6.1 for a few
years. It is very rare
for our company to actually use Epicor for support and
with our upgrade to
8.0 not in the near future I would love to hear from the
group regarding the
pros and cons of having the support agreement. I am ready
to write the check
but am on the fence???

Thanks in advance,




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: (
Note: You must have already linked your email address to a
yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for
Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies',
please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services
goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



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vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From working in the past for a company that did not pay support for a couple
of years...
Read what Manasa wrote as...
"Epicor has always just let (Makes) you pay up."
There is no...I will just skip this year or two and start back up again
later.
In the long run, you will pay for every day you are not getting support
between now and the time you choose to start back up. You are much better
off to just keep the invoice paid, assuming you ever plan to upgrade as the
sticker shock when 3 or more years pass will have you reviewing alternative
software, and with it fresh in your memory that you have not used support
for the past few years, the pill will be even tougher to swallow.
Consider this one vote for staying on support.
Aaron Hoyt
Vantage Plastics

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Manasa Reddy
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:33 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement


I've seen companies not pay support until they were ready to
go to
the next version. At that point Epicor has always just let
you pay up
what you hadn't paid in the past. Of course that was a few
years ago.
Their policy could have changed since. Might want to just
ask them what
they are willing to do for you, or just wait when you are
ready to ask them at that point.

HTH,

M. Manasa Reddy
ERP Specialist
Crestview Aerospace Corporation
Email: mreddy@...
Phone: (850) 682-2746 x 272


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of James Smith
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 8:23 AM
To: Vantage (E-mail)
Subject: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement


I am holding out on paying for the support agreement that
is currently due
to Epicor. We are on 6.1 with no intention of upgrading to
8 anytime soon.
We have always been current with our support agreement,
but cash flow at our
company was tight when the agreement came up for renewal
and it got me
thinking about the benefits that I receive for the cost -
especially knowing
that our company will most likely be on 6.1 for a few
years. It is very rare
for our company to actually use Epicor for support and
with our upgrade to
8.0 not in the near future I would love to hear from the
group regarding the
pros and cons of having the support agreement. I am ready
to write the check
but am on the fence???

Thanks in advance,




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: (
Note: You must have already linked your email address to a
yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for
Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies',
please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services
goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



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------------------
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vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
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(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
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Yahoo! Groups Links
Funny you should mention this. We are on 6.1 and stopped maintenance
~12+ months ago due to all the bug issues we have been having with the
software. We don't really use the support team unless we are reporting
a bug or they are fixing my database due to the serial # corruption bug
that we found. I then came to the realization that we were not really
getting anything for our support dollars except more patches with more
bugs and more of my time was being spent addressing the bug issues. Any
new features being released by Epicor are being sold as separate modules
rather than base module improvements which makes me wonder where my
maintenance dollars are going. I have had multiple conversations with
upper management at Epicor to no avail and I am basically not going to
spend any more money unless I get something for it. I've asked for
status on all my past bugs to see if they have been resolved and this
has fallen on deaf ears so at this point I do not even know if we old
bugs were fixed.

It's amusing because at some point we are going to have to get back on
maintenance and there will be a dollar amount attached to this. The
question is whether the amount for all the back maintenance is best
spent on Epicor or on a new ERP system. Only time will tell.

Daniel M Tisone
Vice President of Operations and Information Services
dan.tisone@...
Office +1 (949) 440-3685 x148




-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of James Smith
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 6:23 AM
To: Vantage (E-mail)
Subject: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement


I am holding out on paying for the support agreement that is currently
due to Epicor. We are on 6.1 with no intention of upgrading to 8 anytime
soon. We have always been current with our support agreement, but cash
flow at our company was tight when the agreement came up for renewal and
it got me thinking about the benefits that I receive for the cost -
especially knowing that our company will most likely be on 6.1 for a few
years. It is very rare for our company to actually use Epicor for
support and with our upgrade to 8.0 not in the near future I would love
to hear from the group regarding the pros and cons of having the support
agreement. I am ready to write the check but am on the fence???

Thanks in advance,




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
My advice is to work with Epicor to see what terms you can come to.
Things like payments, reduced rates....it never hurts to ask.
Nancy

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of James Smith
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
To: Vantage (E-mail)
Subject: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement

I am holding out on paying for the support agreement that is currently
due to Epicor. We are on 6.1 with no intention of upgrading to 8 anytime
soon.
We have always been current with our support agreement, but cash flow at
our company was tight when the agreement came up for renewal and it got
me thinking about the benefits that I receive for the cost - especially
knowing that our company will most likely be on 6.1 for a few years. It
is very rare for our company to actually use Epicor for support and with
our upgrade to 8.0 not in the near future I would love to hear from the
group regarding the pros and cons of having the support agreement. I am
ready to write the check but am on the fence???

Thanks in advance,




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
Our company was considering the same issues regarding support, but we
found out that if we stopped and wanted version 8.0 later we would
have to pay for the maintenance agreement all the way back to where
we cut it off. We figured if that was the case, we might as well keep
it current since we would pay the same amount either way.

Russell Wright
Manitou Boats

--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Dunn, Nancy" <ndunn@w...> wrote:
> My advice is to work with Epicor to see what terms you can come to.
> Things like payments, reduced rates....it never hurts to ask.
> Nancy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of James Smith
> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
> To: Vantage (E-mail)
> Subject: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement
>
> I am holding out on paying for the support agreement that is
currently
> due to Epicor. We are on 6.1 with no intention of upgrading to 8
anytime
> soon.
> We have always been current with our support agreement, but cash
flow at
> our company was tight when the agreement came up for renewal and it
got
> me thinking about the benefits that I receive for the cost -
especially
> knowing that our company will most likely be on 6.1 for a few
years. It
> is very rare for our company to actually use Epicor for support and
with
> our upgrade to 8.0 not in the near future I would love to hear from
the
> group regarding the pros and cons of having the support agreement.
I am
> ready to write the check but am on the fence???
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must
> have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder
> and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
You also won't get the free patches if you don't sign up. It's a small
price to pay for insurance. I'd try to cut back on something else.



-----Original Message-----
From: Dunn, Nancy [mailto:ndunn@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 2:13 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement



My advice is to work with Epicor to see what terms you can come to.
Things like payments, reduced rates....it never hurts to ask.
Nancy

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of James Smith
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
To: Vantage (E-mail)
Subject: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement

I am holding out on paying for the support agreement that is currently
due to Epicor. We are on 6.1 with no intention of upgrading to 8 anytime
soon.
We have always been current with our support agreement, but cash flow at
our company was tight when the agreement came up for renewal and it got
me thinking about the benefits that I receive for the cost - especially
knowing that our company will most likely be on 6.1 for a few years. It
is very rare for our company to actually use Epicor for support and with
our upgrade to 8.0 not in the near future I would love to hear from the
group regarding the pros and cons of having the support agreement. I am
ready to write the check but am on the fence???

Thanks in advance,




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links








Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




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* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As an added bit of info for those concerned about their support agreement - yesterday's "Keep the Joint Running" column by Bob Lewis at IS Survivor might be of interest. At the moment it is the "front page" item but after a week from the date of this email (if you are searching archives) look for the 5/23/05 column.
http://www.issurvivor.com/
For most of us I think Epicor would qualify as an MLV.
-Todd C.



-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Iverson [mailto:siverson@...]
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:25 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement


You also won't get the free patches if you don't sign up. It's a small
price to pay for insurance. I'd try to cut back on something else.



-----Original Message-----
From: Dunn, Nancy [mailto:ndunn@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 2:13 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement



My advice is to work with Epicor to see what terms you can come to.
Things like payments, reduced rates....it never hurts to ask.
Nancy

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of James Smith
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
To: Vantage (E-mail)
Subject: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement

I am holding out on paying for the support agreement that is currently
due to Epicor. We are on 6.1 with no intention of upgrading to 8 anytime
soon.
We have always been current with our support agreement, but cash flow at
our company was tight when the agreement came up for renewal and it got
me thinking about the benefits that I receive for the cost - especially
knowing that our company will most likely be on 6.1 for a few years. It
is very rare for our company to actually use Epicor for support and with
our upgrade to 8.0 not in the near future I would love to hear from the
group regarding the pros and cons of having the support agreement. I am
ready to write the check but am on the fence???

Thanks in advance,




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links








Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



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* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I understand where you are coming from but I've been
in this business for a long time and to be honest if
you don't pay now you'll pay later...

Gav
--- Susan Iverson <siverson@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
You also won't get the free patches if you don't sign
up. It's a small
price to pay for insurance. I'd try to cut back on
something else.



-----Original Message-----
From: Dunn, Nancy [mailto:ndunn@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 2:13 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support
agreement



My advice is to work with Epicor to see what terms you
can come to.
Things like payments, reduced rates....it never hurts
to ask.
Nancy

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of James Smith
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
To: Vantage (E-mail)
Subject: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement

I am holding out on paying for the support agreement
that is currently
due to Epicor. We are on 6.1 with no intention of
upgrading to 8 anytime
soon.
We have always been current with our support
agreement, but cash flow at
our company was tight when the agreement came up for
renewal and it got
me thinking about the benefits that I receive for the
cost - especially
knowing that our company will most likely be on 6.1
for a few years. It
is very rare for our company to actually use Epicor
for support and with
our upgrade to 8.0 not in the near future I would love
to hear from the
group regarding the pros and cons of having the
support agreement. I am
ready to write the check but am on the fence???

Thanks in advance,




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: (
Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id
to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for
Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage
services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links








Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: (
Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id
to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for
Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage
services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




_____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: (
Note: You must have already linked your email address
to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for
Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other
'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage
services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



---------------------------------
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To visit your group on the web, go to:
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
We went off maintenance this year. We got so tired of the little updates
causing more harm than good and the big updates causing more training than
it was worth. Just decided we were at a stable place that we were
comfortable with ...if the a version works for you why keep changing it for
the sake of new features. As a computer society we've been conditioned to
think that new is better and they keep leading us to the water hole to stick
a knife in us. We shouldn't have to keep updating. Every time Vantage
updates we have to buy a new Crystal Reports. Etc..etc... We just refuse
to go down the road some one else keeps changing the signs on. We made
numerous suggestions for enhancements we'd like to see and we weren't
apparently a large enough contributor to get them implemented.

Love the term "FREE" patches....lol Nothing is FREE at Epicor. It would be
nice to bill Epicor for any lost time due to problems their FREE patches
cause....hmmmm

Regards,
Darren Mann

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Todd Caughey
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:13 AM
To: Darren Mann
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement


As an added bit of info for those concerned about their support agreement -
yesterday's "Keep the Joint Running" column by Bob Lewis at IS Survivor
might be of interest. At the moment it is the "front page" item but after a
week from the date of this email (if you are searching archives) look for
the 5/23/05 column.
http://www.issurvivor.com/
For most of us I think Epicor would qualify as an MLV.
-Todd C.



-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Iverson [mailto:siverson@...]
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:25 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement


You also won't get the free patches if you don't sign up. It's a small
price to pay for insurance. I'd try to cut back on something else.



-----Original Message-----
From: Dunn, Nancy [mailto:ndunn@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 2:13 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement



My advice is to work with Epicor to see what terms you can come to.
Things like payments, reduced rates....it never hurts to ask.
Nancy

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of James Smith
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
To: Vantage (E-mail)
Subject: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement

I am holding out on paying for the support agreement that is currently
due to Epicor. We are on 6.1 with no intention of upgrading to 8 anytime
soon.
We have always been current with our support agreement, but cash flow at
our company was tight when the agreement came up for renewal and it got
me thinking about the benefits that I receive for the cost - especially
knowing that our company will most likely be on 6.1 for a few years. It
is very rare for our company to actually use Epicor for support and with
our upgrade to 8.0 not in the near future I would love to hear from the
group regarding the pros and cons of having the support agreement. I am
ready to write the check but am on the fence???

Thanks in advance,




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links








Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




_____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/


* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



_____

Yahoo! Groups Links


* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/


* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links







--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.15 - Release Date: 5/22/2005


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.15 - Release Date: 5/22/2005
I agree - we have not paid maintenance for 2 years now. We are still on
Version 3 - it works for us and after all the problems people had with
Version 4 & 5 - I wasn't interested in upgrading. You ahve to decide what
works for you at this point and I'm sure if you wanted to upgrade a year
from now - they would let you pay the back maintenance then.

When we are ready to move onto 8.0 - we will probably start from stratch
because I'm told I need all new hardware anyway.

Janet Memmelaar
Vice-President Sales & Administration
Metal Cutting Corporation
89 Commerce Road
Cedar Grove, NJ 07009 USA
1-800-783-6382
1-973-239-1100 x28
Fax 1-973-239-6651
www.metalcutting.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darren Mann" <dmann@...>
To: <vantage@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement


> We went off maintenance this year. We got so tired of the little updates
> causing more harm than good and the big updates causing more training than
> it was worth. Just decided we were at a stable place that we were
> comfortable with ...if the a version works for you why keep changing it
> for
> the sake of new features. As a computer society we've been conditioned to
> think that new is better and they keep leading us to the water hole to
> stick
> a knife in us. We shouldn't have to keep updating. Every time Vantage
> updates we have to buy a new Crystal Reports. Etc..etc... We just refuse
> to go down the road some one else keeps changing the signs on. We made
> numerous suggestions for enhancements we'd like to see and we weren't
> apparently a large enough contributor to get them implemented.
>
> Love the term "FREE" patches....lol Nothing is FREE at Epicor. It would
> be
> nice to bill Epicor for any lost time due to problems their FREE patches
> cause....hmmmm
>
> Regards,
> Darren Mann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
> Todd Caughey
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:13 AM
> To: Darren Mann
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement
>
>
> As an added bit of info for those concerned about their support
> agreement -
> yesterday's "Keep the Joint Running" column by Bob Lewis at IS Survivor
> might be of interest. At the moment it is the "front page" item but after
> a
> week from the date of this email (if you are searching archives) look for
> the 5/23/05 column.
> http://www.issurvivor.com/
> For most of us I think Epicor would qualify as an MLV.
> -Todd C.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Susan Iverson [mailto:siverson@...]
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:25 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement
>
>
> You also won't get the free patches if you don't sign up. It's a small
> price to pay for insurance. I'd try to cut back on something else.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dunn, Nancy [mailto:ndunn@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 2:13 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement
>
>
>
> My advice is to work with Epicor to see what terms you can come to.
> Things like payments, reduced rates....it never hurts to ask.
> Nancy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of James Smith
> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
> To: Vantage (E-mail)
> Subject: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement
>
> I am holding out on paying for the support agreement that is currently
> due to Epicor. We are on 6.1 with no intention of upgrading to 8 anytime
> soon.
> We have always been current with our support agreement, but cash flow at
> our company was tight when the agreement came up for renewal and it got
> me thinking about the benefits that I receive for the cost - especially
> knowing that our company will most likely be on 6.1 for a few years. It
> is very rare for our company to actually use Epicor for support and with
> our upgrade to 8.0 not in the near future I would love to hear from the
> group regarding the pros and cons of having the support agreement. I am
> ready to write the check but am on the fence???
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
> and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
> and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.15 - Release Date: 5/22/2005
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.15 - Release Date: 5/22/2005
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
A cautionary real-life experience about dropping off of support.
In 1989 I was hired by another company to rescue them from a tight bind. It seems some years before they had dropped maintenance for their ASK-MANMAN software (early MRP system written in Fortran). Well, the company grew and needed at new VAX/VMS server BUT....the latest servers only ran on a new version of VMS...AND...the newer version of VMS only ran the latest version of DMS-II the database MANMAN required. The equivalent of schema changes etc...for DMS-II could only be done by ASK Software. Thus in order to accommodate the growth of the company and a new server there were three choices....shop for a new system, re-buy MANMAN or pay the missing years of support. We reluctantly picked support catch-up to the tune of about $45,000 and started porting our massive number of customizations - which should have been a clear sign this was the wrong system for us to begin with. A year later this was so obvious we purchased a home grown system from our Australian sister company in the same business (steel rollforming) and implemented that over the next two years with massive "change trauma" to the company. Also had to add three Cognos-Powerhouse programmers to do our own support - well over $100K per year.

To put it into perspective of Vantage.....
Drop support today. Then 2 years from now you need a new, faster/larger, server. New server requires Longhorn version of Windows-Server. Progress 9.1 won't run on Longhorn. Now what? Pay catch-up on maintenance and convert to Vantage 8.3(?) -or- rebuy Vantage -or- shop for the best current system AND jerk the userbase around with new training and processes (at what total cost to the company?). At 15% of the list price maintenance takes about 6 years to equal the new system cost (5 years or so if you cut a deal on re-buy). What changes are likely to occur in your organization in the next 5 years? If it is really stable and not likely to outgrow the server it might be worth the risk. But what company plans to stand still? The only way I could see to stop maintenance would be if I was certain right now that Vantage 8.0 will be the wrong system and prepared to bank away the support costs towards a new system in a few years.

If cash flow is tight then Epicor, and your CAM, have every incentive to keep you "in the fold" - not the least of which is the possibility to sell add-on modules - and to preserve the revenue stream (something investors look at carefully). Talk to them so you can weigh all your options.

-Todd C.
PS - I no longer have any investment position in EPIC.

-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Memmelaar [mailto:janet@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 9:28 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement


I agree - we have not paid maintenance for 2 years now. We are still on
Version 3 - it works for us and after all the problems people had with
Version 4 & 5 - I wasn't interested in upgrading. You ahve to decide what
works for you at this point and I'm sure if you wanted to upgrade a year
from now - they would let you pay the back maintenance then.

When we are ready to move onto 8.0 - we will probably start from stratch
because I'm told I need all new hardware anyway.

Janet Memmelaar
Vice-President Sales & Administration
Metal Cutting Corporation
89 Commerce Road
Cedar Grove, NJ 07009 USA
1-800-783-6382
1-973-239-1100 x28
Fax 1-973-239-6651
www.metalcutting.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darren Mann" <dmann@...>
To: <vantage@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement


> We went off maintenance this year. We got so tired of the little updates
> causing more harm than good and the big updates causing more training than
> it was worth. Just decided we were at a stable place that we were
> comfortable with ...if the a version works for you why keep changing it
> for
> the sake of new features. As a computer society we've been conditioned to
> think that new is better and they keep leading us to the water hole to
> stick
> a knife in us. We shouldn't have to keep updating. Every time Vantage
> updates we have to buy a new Crystal Reports. Etc..etc... We just refuse
> to go down the road some one else keeps changing the signs on. We made
> numerous suggestions for enhancements we'd like to see and we weren't
> apparently a large enough contributor to get them implemented.
>
> Love the term "FREE" patches....lol Nothing is FREE at Epicor. It would
> be
> nice to bill Epicor for any lost time due to problems their FREE patches
> cause....hmmmm
>
> Regards,
> Darren Mann
>
If you are on this list presumbaly your company has
decided that Vantage / Vista is the tool that they you
are to use to run your business.

The plain fact is that if you are smart your software
implementation should not stop - once you have
installed and implemented Vantage you should really
create a business development team that meets at least
once a month to discuss ways to improve your business.

This team should be responsible for gathering
information from users, customers and vendors,
compiling the data and then make recommendations on
how to further improve the business. Software is only
one part of this - but it is the vehicle to help drive
your business forward.

If you don't do this, you can be damn sure your
competition is.

One last thought. How many of you have seen your
companies business plan? Do they have one? While it
probably contains some sensitive information theres no
reason why some of it cant be shared with virtually
the whole company - its all part of the same process.

Continuous improvement doesn't only apply to the shop
floor...

Gavin

--- Todd Caughey <caugheyt@...> wrote:

> A cautionary real-life experience about dropping off
> of support.
> In 1989 I was hired by another company to rescue
> them from a tight bind. It seems some years before
> they had dropped maintenance for their ASK-MANMAN
> software (early MRP system written in Fortran).
> Well, the company grew and needed at new VAX/VMS
> server BUT....the latest servers only ran on a new
> version of VMS...AND...the newer version of VMS only
> ran the latest version of DMS-II the database MANMAN
> required. The equivalent of schema changes
> etc...for DMS-II could only be done by ASK Software.
> Thus in order to accommodate the growth of the
> company and a new server there were three
> choices....shop for a new system, re-buy MANMAN or
> pay the missing years of support. We reluctantly
> picked support catch-up to the tune of about $45,000
> and started porting our massive number of
> customizations - which should have been a clear sign
> this was the wrong system for us to begin with. A
> year later this was so obvious we purchased a home
> grown system from our Australian sister company in
> the same business (steel rollforming) and
> implemented that over the next two years with
> massive "change trauma" to the company. Also had to
> add three Cognos-Powerhouse programmers to do our
> own support - well over $100K per year.
>
> To put it into perspective of Vantage.....
> Drop support today. Then 2 years from now you need
> a new, faster/larger, server. New server requires
> Longhorn version of Windows-Server. Progress 9.1
> won't run on Longhorn. Now what? Pay catch-up on
> maintenance and convert to Vantage 8.3(?) -or- rebuy
> Vantage -or- shop for the best current system AND
> jerk the userbase around with new training and
> processes (at what total cost to the company?).
> At 15% of the list price maintenance takes about 6
> years to equal the new system cost (5 years or so if
> you cut a deal on re-buy). What changes are likely
> to occur in your organization in the next 5 years?
> If it is really stable and not likely to outgrow the
> server it might be worth the risk. But what company
> plans to stand still? The only way I could see to
> stop maintenance would be if I was certain right now
> that Vantage 8.0 will be the wrong system and
> prepared to bank away the support costs towards a
> new system in a few years.
>
> If cash flow is tight then Epicor, and your CAM,
> have every incentive to keep you "in the fold" - not
> the least of which is the possibility to sell add-on
> modules - and to preserve the revenue stream
> (something investors look at carefully). Talk to
> them so you can weigh all your options.
>
> -Todd C.
> PS - I no longer have any investment position in
> EPIC.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janet Memmelaar
> [mailto:janet@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 9:28 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Vantage] Holding out on support
> agreement
>
>
> I agree - we have not paid maintenance for 2 years
> now. We are still on
> Version 3 - it works for us and after all the
> problems people had with
> Version 4 & 5 - I wasn't interested in upgrading.
> You ahve to decide what
> works for you at this point and I'm sure if you
> wanted to upgrade a year
> from now - they would let you pay the back
> maintenance then.
>
> When we are ready to move onto 8.0 - we will
> probably start from stratch
> because I'm told I need all new hardware anyway.
>
> Janet Memmelaar
> Vice-President Sales & Administration
> Metal Cutting Corporation
> 89 Commerce Road
> Cedar Grove, NJ 07009 USA
> 1-800-783-6382
> 1-973-239-1100 x28
> Fax 1-973-239-6651
> www.metalcutting.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Darren Mann" <dmann@...>
> To: <vantage@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 9:56 AM
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support
> agreement
>
>
> > We went off maintenance this year. We got so
> tired of the little updates
> > causing more harm than good and the big updates
> causing more training than
> > it was worth. Just decided we were at a stable
> place that we were
> > comfortable with ...if the a version works for you
> why keep changing it
> > for
> > the sake of new features. As a computer society
> we've been conditioned to
> > think that new is better and they keep leading us
> to the water hole to
> > stick
> > a knife in us. We shouldn't have to keep
> updating. Every time Vantage
> > updates we have to buy a new Crystal Reports.
> Etc..etc... We just refuse
> > to go down the road some one else keeps changing
> the signs on. We made
> > numerous suggestions for enhancements we'd like to
> see and we weren't
> > apparently a large enough contributor to get them
> implemented.
> >
> > Love the term "FREE" patches....lol Nothing is
> FREE at Epicor. It would
> > be
> > nice to bill Epicor for any lost time due to
> problems their FREE patches
> > cause....hmmmm
> >
> > Regards,
> > Darren Mann
> >
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are:
> ( Note: You must have already linked your email
> address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group
> for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other
> 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage
> services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>


______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
A lot of what drives us in the upgrade path is customer demand. We are
AS9100 certified, and that creates demand as well. Customers want us to
capture information (metrics)AND share it with them. We teetered on the
edge of being too small to deal with those items for a while, now we are
growing and had better keep up while we can.

When we entered the "Lean Manufacturing" area, a set of goals and
expectations was created for the entire company as well as individual
departments. Excel spreadsheets can't capture all of the info anymore. We
have become not just manufacturerers, but data farmers as well. When one of
the "big" companies wants us to comply with their requests or drop off of
their vendor list, we can only comply--or die. Vantage, and its upgrades,
is what puts us in the place where we can comply. (This could easily be ANY
OTHER SOFTWARE THE COMPANY CHOOSES TO USE.)

Yep, sometimes patches suck, and so does the extra work and training to
upgrade. But having to plan and conduct training is part of what keeps me
aware of what is going on in every department. If nothing else I learn how
they are "working around" the real way Vantage is meant to be. Training also
brings every person who uses the software into a safe environment to discuss
what works for them and what doesn't, what they need, what they wish for, in
the software.

My two bits (which is actually a quarter!)
Lydia




-----Original Message-----
From: Gavin Davidson [mailto:gavinjd68@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:20 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement


If you are on this list presumbaly your company has
decided that Vantage / Vista is the tool that they you
are to use to run your business.

The plain fact is that if you are smart your software
implementation should not stop - once you have
installed and implemented Vantage you should really
create a business development team that meets at least
once a month to discuss ways to improve your business.

This team should be responsible for gathering
information from users, customers and vendors,
compiling the data and then make recommendations on
how to further improve the business. Software is only
one part of this - but it is the vehicle to help drive
your business forward.

If you don't do this, you can be damn sure your
competition is.

One last thought. How many of you have seen your
companies business plan? Do they have one? While it
probably contains some sensitive information theres no
reason why some of it cant be shared with virtually
the whole company - its all part of the same process.

Continuous improvement doesn't only apply to the shop
floor...

Gavin

> plans to stand still? The only way I could see to
> stop maintenance would be if I was certain right now
> that Vantage 8.0 will be the wrong system and
> prepared to bank away the support costs towards a
> new system in a few years.
>
> If cash flow is tight then Epicor, and your CAM,
> have every incentive to keep you "in the fold" - not
> the least of which is the possibility to sell add-on
> modules - and to preserve the revenue stream
> (something investors look at carefully). Talk to
> them so you can weigh all your options.
>
> -Todd C.
> PS - I no longer have any investment position in
> EPIC.
>
>
>
How much is the renewal of the service agreement? Ours isn't quite up
yet.

Thanks,
Ben


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Coffman <lcoffman@c...> wrote:
> A lot of what drives us in the upgrade path is customer demand. We are
> AS9100 certified, and that creates demand as well. Customers want us to
> capture information (metrics)AND share it with them. We teetered on the
> edge of being too small to deal with those items for a while, now we are
> growing and had better keep up while we can.
>
> When we entered the "Lean Manufacturing" area, a set of goals and
> expectations was created for the entire company as well as individual
> departments. Excel spreadsheets can't capture all of the info
anymore. We
> have become not just manufacturerers, but data farmers as well.
When one of
> the "big" companies wants us to comply with their requests or drop
off of
> their vendor list, we can only comply--or die. Vantage, and its
upgrades,
> is what puts us in the place where we can comply. (This could easily
be ANY
> OTHER SOFTWARE THE COMPANY CHOOSES TO USE.)
>
> Yep, sometimes patches suck, and so does the extra work and training to
> upgrade. But having to plan and conduct training is part of what
keeps me
> aware of what is going on in every department. If nothing else I
learn how
> they are "working around" the real way Vantage is meant to be.
Training also
> brings every person who uses the software into a safe environment to
discuss
> what works for them and what doesn't, what they need, what they wish
for, in
> the software.
>
> My two bits (which is actually a quarter!)
> Lydia
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gavin Davidson [mailto:gavinjd68@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:20 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement
>
>
> If you are on this list presumbaly your company has
> decided that Vantage / Vista is the tool that they you
> are to use to run your business.
>
> The plain fact is that if you are smart your software
> implementation should not stop - once you have
> installed and implemented Vantage you should really
> create a business development team that meets at least
> once a month to discuss ways to improve your business.
>
> This team should be responsible for gathering
> information from users, customers and vendors,
> compiling the data and then make recommendations on
> how to further improve the business. Software is only
> one part of this - but it is the vehicle to help drive
> your business forward.
>
> If you don't do this, you can be damn sure your
> competition is.
>
> One last thought. How many of you have seen your
> companies business plan? Do they have one? While it
> probably contains some sensitive information theres no
> reason why some of it cant be shared with virtually
> the whole company - its all part of the same process.
>
> Continuous improvement doesn't only apply to the shop
> floor...
>
> Gavin
>
> > plans to stand still? The only way I could see to
> > stop maintenance would be if I was certain right now
> > that Vantage 8.0 will be the wrong system and
> > prepared to bank away the support costs towards a
> > new system in a few years.
> >
> > If cash flow is tight then Epicor, and your CAM,
> > have every incentive to keep you "in the fold" - not
> > the least of which is the possibility to sell add-on
> > modules - and to preserve the revenue stream
> > (something investors look at carefully). Talk to
> > them so you can weigh all your options.
> >
> > -Todd C.
> > PS - I no longer have any investment position in
> > EPIC.
> >
> >
> >
Check your contract, but it is usually in the neighborhood of 15% of
purchase price. It'll make you fall over if you aren't expecting
it--sometimes when you are! If it is any comfort, that is the standard rate
for almost all major software packages these days, but often you can
negotiate a lower rate at the time of purchase and make it stick for up to
five years.

Course, with Microsoft you have to buy all new software every time and it is
usually more than the last version.

Lydia

-----Original Message-----
From: bbelzer42 [mailto:bbelzer@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:04 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Holding out on support agreement


How much is the renewal of the service agreement? Ours isn't quite up
yet.

Thanks,
Ben


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Coffman <lcoffman@c...> wrote:
> A lot of what drives us in the upgrade path is customer demand. We are
> AS9100 certified, and that creates demand as well. Customers want us to
> capture information (metrics)AND share it with them. We teetered on the
> edge of being too small to deal with those items for a while, now we are
> growing and had better keep up while we can.
>
> When we entered the "Lean Manufacturing" area, a set of goals and
> expectations was created for the entire company as well as individual
> departments. Excel spreadsheets can't capture all of the info
anymore. We
> have become not just manufacturerers, but data farmers as well.
When one of
> the "big" companies wants us to comply with their requests or drop
off of
> their vendor list, we can only comply--or die. Vantage, and its
upgrades,
> is what puts us in the place where we can comply. (This could easily
be ANY
> OTHER SOFTWARE THE COMPANY CHOOSES TO USE.)
>
> Yep, sometimes patches suck, and so does the extra work and training to
> upgrade. But having to plan and conduct training is part of what
keeps me
> aware of what is going on in every department. If nothing else I
learn how
> they are "working around" the real way Vantage is meant to be.
Training also
> brings every person who uses the software into a safe environment to
discuss
> what works for them and what doesn't, what they need, what they wish
for, in
> the software.
>
> My two bits (which is actually a quarter!)
> Lydia
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gavin Davidson [mailto:gavinjd68@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:20 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Holding out on support agreement
>
>
> If you are on this list presumbaly your company has
> decided that Vantage / Vista is the tool that they you
> are to use to run your business.
>
> The plain fact is that if you are smart your software
> implementation should not stop - once you have
> installed and implemented Vantage you should really
> create a business development team that meets at least
> once a month to discuss ways to improve your business.
>
> This team should be responsible for gathering
> information from users, customers and vendors,
> compiling the data and then make recommendations on
> how to further improve the business. Software is only
> one part of this - but it is the vehicle to help drive
> your business forward.
>
> If you don't do this, you can be damn sure your
> competition is.
>
> One last thought. How many of you have seen your
> companies business plan? Do they have one? While it
> probably contains some sensitive information theres no
> reason why some of it cant be shared with virtually
> the whole company - its all part of the same process.
>
> Continuous improvement doesn't only apply to the shop
> floor...
>
> Gavin
>
> > plans to stand still? The only way I could see to
> > stop maintenance would be if I was certain right now
> > that Vantage 8.0 will be the wrong system and
> > prepared to bank away the support costs towards a
> > new system in a few years.
> >
> > If cash flow is tight then Epicor, and your CAM,
> > have every incentive to keep you "in the fold" - not
> > the least of which is the possibility to sell add-on
> > modules - and to preserve the revenue stream
> > (something investors look at carefully). Talk to
> > them so you can weigh all your options.
> >
> > -Todd C.
> > PS - I no longer have any investment position in
> > EPIC.
> >
> >
> >




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links