Vantage Maintenance Renewal

I would like to forward our treasurer's response and also like to add, that
every year we have a hard time selling the idea of renewing our maintenance
agreement. We must come up with cost justifications and reasons why maintenance
and up grades are needed. To be honest it is a lot of money to try to justify.
And to say that this entitles us to patches in order to fix a flaw in something
which was presumed to correct originally is is almost impossible to sell to
anybody.
Chris Canterino


I would like to add to Darren Mann's comments made to Epicor regarding
the payment of the annual maintenance agreement. First of all I agree
with all his complaints. The amount of money that is charged for
updates and annual tech. support is extremely high when compared to the
value received in return. I would strongly support a movement to force
Epicor to offer more value or to lower the annual maintenance charge.
My Company annually debates continuing this support agreement and we are
very close to not renewing it in the future. We need value for our
dollars !!!!

Dave O'Neil/Espey Mfg.

Terry Williams wrote:

> I gotta add my $.02 worth. I've been inquiring about buying source code and
> have been told that one cannot buy it anymore. It seems someone bought it
> and turned it into a competing product. That's not my desire. I just want
> to make what I have work. I'd even sign a disclaimer to that effect.
> Darren, if you get an answer to your inquiry, please let me know. Thanks.
>
> Terry L. Williams I.S. Manager Chipsco, Inc. 9936 Liberty St. Ext.
> Meadville, PA 16335 814-333-6331 x236 fax: 814-337-2548 tlw@...
> <mailto:tlw@...> www.chipsco.com <http://www.chipsco.com/>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darren Mann [mailto:dmann@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 11:31 AM
> To: Matthew Christus; Vantage User Group (E-mail)
> Subject: [Vantage] RE: Vantage Maintenance Renewal
>
> Good Morning, Matt
>
> I do have a couple of questions for you. Should our maintenance be the same
> amount as last year?
>
> How much would it cost for the source code? The reason I ask is that we
> have had serious bugs in the 5.0 update that have caused detrimental effects
> on our costing system and I have seen very little of support from your
> company. Call ID # 664213 is just one example. I have several open calls
> all clearly bugs in the system and all reported during the month of Jan and
> early Feb. but now it is March and nothing has been fixed!! I have a bug in
> the Labor Gateway program that has been there for going on two years and
> nothing has been done. Your Eranet is never current with the new releases,
> no listing of confirmed bugs anywhere, and patches contain very little
> information about what is fixed. I spend too much time trying to gather all
> the facts regarding a bug issue only to find out that it wasn't only
> isolated to our company and in fact that others are having the same problem.
> What I am trying to say is that the maintenance agreement is worthless for
> what we get for assistance from you folks.
>
> Basically looking back on the year, we did get to talk to some nice tech
> persons, some procedural problems were taken care of, numerous patches were
> applied each one fixing some problems while creating others, then WHAM 5.0
> comes out with all these nice features to make our life easier but mix that
> with all the serious problems we have encountered and all those nice
> features seem to fade away. Not to mention the rumblings from the users as
> why did they move this field or remove this button or how do I do this now
> questions. Your annual updates seem to lack real substance or add new
> features. The new modules you develop cost additional $$ to add their
> functionality to the system. Give us some of those new modules included in
> our maintenance and sell them to your new users!! Thus it seems that these
> annual updates do nothing more than fix bugs and then create new bugs, mixed
> with a few new touchy feely bells and whistles. I am really considering the
> termination of this maintenance agreement do to its complete lack of
> sustenance for the exuberant cost it entails. I am sure I am not alone on
> this.
>
> Unless I am convinced otherwise and I can convince the president of our
> company who will not give you any money until the costing bug is fixed. I
> almost lost my job over that!! So why should I give you tons of money each
> year to risk the livelihood of my family due to the complete lack of testing
> on your companies part? We are not beta testers when the final release is
> sent out!!! If we are then this CD needs to say beta on it so our database
> can remain entact!! The bugs in 5.0 are not just little things that you can
> live with. Those bugs should be fixed even if I am not on maintenance since
> your programmers caused them.
>
> A few things you will need to agree to before I would sign a maintenance
> agreement
> - Patches should be readily available free of ANY charge. Even
> without maintenance.
> - Complete disclosure of bugs fixed and not fixed, make the
> programmers accountable for their work!
> - Two day response time to critical bugs. Fix included.
> - Issue non-critical patches weekly vs. monthly.
> - Confirm with customer before a tech call is closed.
> - Option to add two new modules to existing system FREE each year.
>
> Anyone care to add to this list?
>
> Matt, I am not trying to pick on you but I know this is a sore subject with
> us and I must speak my mind freely. My company has been discussing this a
> lot and I just thought you would like to know where we stand. No offense
> intended to you personally.
>
> Regards,
>
> Darren Mann
> Miller Products Co.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Matthew Christus [mailto:mchristus@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 9:08 AM
> > To: 'dmann@...'
> > Subject: RE: Vantage Maintenance Renewal
> >
> >
> > Good morning,
> >
> > Our records show that your maintenance on the Epicor
> > eManufacturing/Vantage
> > application will be expiring at the end of the month, March 31st.
> >
> > This maintenance covers the use of support via phone, fax and
> > the internet.
> > Along with the support, you also receive access to our knowledgebase,
> > customer center web site, and all patches and commercial
> > releases over the
> > next year.
> >
> > I encourage you to contact me if you have any questions regarding the
> > invoice you have received, or on the maintenance plan itself.
> >
> > Thank you in advance for your renewal.
> >
> > Matthew Christus
> > Manager of Technical Support
> > epicor Software Corporation
> > email: mchristus@...
> > phone:(952) 417-5267
> > fax: (952) 582-5508
> > EraNet: http://www.epicor.com
> >
> >
>
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Good Morning, Matt

I do have a couple of questions for you. Should our maintenance be the same
amount as last year?

How much would it cost for the source code? The reason I ask is that we
have had serious bugs in the 5.0 update that have caused detrimental effects
on our costing system and I have seen very little of support from your
company. Call ID # 664213 is just one example. I have several open calls
all clearly bugs in the system and all reported during the month of Jan and
early Feb. but now it is March and nothing has been fixed!! I have a bug in
the Labor Gateway program that has been there for going on two years and
nothing has been done. Your Eranet is never current with the new releases,
no listing of confirmed bugs anywhere, and patches contain very little
information about what is fixed. I spend too much time trying to gather all
the facts regarding a bug issue only to find out that it wasn't only
isolated to our company and in fact that others are having the same problem.
What I am trying to say is that the maintenance agreement is worthless for
what we get for assistance from you folks.

Basically looking back on the year, we did get to talk to some nice tech
persons, some procedural problems were taken care of, numerous patches were
applied each one fixing some problems while creating others, then WHAM 5.0
comes out with all these nice features to make our life easier but mix that
with all the serious problems we have encountered and all those nice
features seem to fade away. Not to mention the rumblings from the users as
why did they move this field or remove this button or how do I do this now
questions. Your annual updates seem to lack real substance or add new
features. The new modules you develop cost additional $$ to add their
functionality to the system. Give us some of those new modules included in
our maintenance and sell them to your new users!! Thus it seems that these
annual updates do nothing more than fix bugs and then create new bugs, mixed
with a few new touchy feely bells and whistles. I am really considering the
termination of this maintenance agreement do to its complete lack of
sustenance for the exuberant cost it entails. I am sure I am not alone on
this.

Unless I am convinced otherwise and I can convince the president of our
company who will not give you any money until the costing bug is fixed. I
almost lost my job over that!! So why should I give you tons of money each
year to risk the livelihood of my family due to the complete lack of testing
on your companies part? We are not beta testers when the final release is
sent out!!! If we are then this CD needs to say beta on it so our database
can remain entact!! The bugs in 5.0 are not just little things that you can
live with. Those bugs should be fixed even if I am not on maintenance since
your programmers caused them.

A few things you will need to agree to before I would sign a maintenance
agreement
- Patches should be readily available free of ANY charge. Even
without maintenance.
- Complete disclosure of bugs fixed and not fixed, make the
programmers accountable for their work!
- Two day response time to critical bugs. Fix included.
- Issue non-critical patches weekly vs. monthly.
- Confirm with customer before a tech call is closed.
- Option to add two new modules to existing system FREE each year.

Anyone care to add to this list?

Matt, I am not trying to pick on you but I know this is a sore subject with
us and I must speak my mind freely. My company has been discussing this a
lot and I just thought you would like to know where we stand. No offense
intended to you personally.

Regards,

Darren Mann
Miller Products Co.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Christus [mailto:mchristus@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 9:08 AM
> To: 'dmann@...'
> Subject: RE: Vantage Maintenance Renewal
>
>
> Good morning,
>
> Our records show that your maintenance on the Epicor
> eManufacturing/Vantage
> application will be expiring at the end of the month, March 31st.
>
> This maintenance covers the use of support via phone, fax and
> the internet.
> Along with the support, you also receive access to our knowledgebase,
> customer center web site, and all patches and commercial
> releases over the
> next year.
>
> I encourage you to contact me if you have any questions regarding the
> invoice you have received, or on the maintenance plan itself.
>
> Thank you in advance for your renewal.
>
> Matthew Christus
> Manager of Technical Support
> epicor Software Corporation
> email: mchristus@...
> phone:(952) 417-5267
> fax: (952) 582-5508
> EraNet: http://www.epicor.com
>
>
I have been through this discussion and decision process with two companies
recently, both using an Epicor product (not Vantage). In both cases, the
decision was made to drop maintenance. The final consensus throughout
management was that the maintenance agreement was really a very expensive
insurance policy for the possibility of getting some support in the event of
a full system crash. All of the other 'benefits' offered under the contract
were worthless, or at least not worth the price of the contract.

However, the particular product in question, Avante, comes with source code.
Had we not had the ability to implement our own bug fixes and modifications,
we would not have made the same decision in either case. Based on this, you
really need to get the price for source code, and your company will have to
strongly consider buying it. This decision will determine whether or not
you can drop the maintenance.

Good Luck...B

-----Original Message-----
From: Darren Mann [mailto:dmann@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 9:31 AM
To: Matthew Christus; Vantage User Group (E-mail)
Subject: [Vantage] RE: Vantage Maintenance Renewal


Good Morning, Matt

I do have a couple of questions for you. Should our maintenance be the same
amount as last year?

How much would it cost for the source code? The reason I ask is that we
have had serious bugs in the 5.0 update that have caused detrimental effects
on our costing system and I have seen very little of support from your
company. Call ID # 664213 is just one example. I have several open calls
all clearly bugs in the system and all reported during the month of Jan and
early Feb. but now it is March and nothing has been fixed!! I have a bug in
the Labor Gateway program that has been there for going on two years and
nothing has been done. Your Eranet is never current with the new releases,
no listing of confirmed bugs anywhere, and patches contain very little
information about what is fixed. I spend too much time trying to gather all
the facts regarding a bug issue only to find out that it wasn't only
isolated to our company and in fact that others are having the same problem.
What I am trying to say is that the maintenance agreement is worthless for
what we get for assistance from you folks.

Basically looking back on the year, we did get to talk to some nice tech
persons, some procedural problems were taken care of, numerous patches were
applied each one fixing some problems while creating others, then WHAM 5.0
comes out with all these nice features to make our life easier but mix that
with all the serious problems we have encountered and all those nice
features seem to fade away. Not to mention the rumblings from the users as
why did they move this field or remove this button or how do I do this now
questions. Your annual updates seem to lack real substance or add new
features. The new modules you develop cost additional $$ to add their
functionality to the system. Give us some of those new modules included in
our maintenance and sell them to your new users!! Thus it seems that these
annual updates do nothing more than fix bugs and then create new bugs, mixed
with a few new touchy feely bells and whistles. I am really considering the
termination of this maintenance agreement do to its complete lack of
sustenance for the exuberant cost it entails. I am sure I am not alone on
this.

Unless I am convinced otherwise and I can convince the president of our
company who will not give you any money until the costing bug is fixed. I
almost lost my job over that!! So why should I give you tons of money each
year to risk the livelihood of my family due to the complete lack of testing
on your companies part? We are not beta testers when the final release is
sent out!!! If we are then this CD needs to say beta on it so our database
can remain entact!! The bugs in 5.0 are not just little things that you can
live with. Those bugs should be fixed even if I am not on maintenance since
your programmers caused them.

A few things you will need to agree to before I would sign a maintenance
agreement
- Patches should be readily available free of ANY charge. Even
without maintenance.
- Complete disclosure of bugs fixed and not fixed, make the
programmers accountable for their work!
- Two day response time to critical bugs. Fix included.
- Issue non-critical patches weekly vs. monthly.
- Confirm with customer before a tech call is closed.
- Option to add two new modules to existing system FREE each year.

Anyone care to add to this list?

Matt, I am not trying to pick on you but I know this is a sore subject with
us and I must speak my mind freely. My company has been discussing this a
lot and I just thought you would like to know where we stand. No offense
intended to you personally.

Regards,

Darren Mann
Miller Products Co.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Christus [mailto:mchristus@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 9:08 AM
> To: 'dmann@...'
> Subject: RE: Vantage Maintenance Renewal
>
>
> Good morning,
>
> Our records show that your maintenance on the Epicor
> eManufacturing/Vantage
> application will be expiring at the end of the month, March 31st.
>
> This maintenance covers the use of support via phone, fax and
> the internet.
> Along with the support, you also receive access to our knowledgebase,
> customer center web site, and all patches and commercial
> releases over the
> next year.
>
> I encourage you to contact me if you have any questions regarding the
> invoice you have received, or on the maintenance plan itself.
>
> Thank you in advance for your renewal.
>
> Matthew Christus
> Manager of Technical Support
> epicor Software Corporation
> email: mchristus@...
> phone:(952) 417-5267
> fax: (952) 582-5508
> EraNet: http://www.epicor.com
>
>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I gotta add my $.02 worth. I've been inquiring about buying source code and
have been told that one cannot buy it anymore. It seems someone bought it
and turned it into a competing product. That's not my desire. I just want
to make what I have work. I'd even sign a disclaimer to that effect.
Darren, if you get an answer to your inquiry, please let me know. Thanks.

Terry L. Williams I.S. Manager Chipsco, Inc. 9936 Liberty St. Ext.
Meadville, PA 16335 814-333-6331 x236 fax: 814-337-2548 tlw@...
<mailto:tlw@...> www.chipsco.com <http://www.chipsco.com/>

-----Original Message-----
From: Darren Mann [mailto:dmann@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 11:31 AM
To: Matthew Christus; Vantage User Group (E-mail)
Subject: [Vantage] RE: Vantage Maintenance Renewal

Good Morning, Matt

I do have a couple of questions for you. Should our maintenance be the same
amount as last year?

How much would it cost for the source code? The reason I ask is that we
have had serious bugs in the 5.0 update that have caused detrimental effects
on our costing system and I have seen very little of support from your
company. Call ID # 664213 is just one example. I have several open calls
all clearly bugs in the system and all reported during the month of Jan and
early Feb. but now it is March and nothing has been fixed!! I have a bug in
the Labor Gateway program that has been there for going on two years and
nothing has been done. Your Eranet is never current with the new releases,
no listing of confirmed bugs anywhere, and patches contain very little
information about what is fixed. I spend too much time trying to gather all
the facts regarding a bug issue only to find out that it wasn't only
isolated to our company and in fact that others are having the same problem.
What I am trying to say is that the maintenance agreement is worthless for
what we get for assistance from you folks.

Basically looking back on the year, we did get to talk to some nice tech
persons, some procedural problems were taken care of, numerous patches were
applied each one fixing some problems while creating others, then WHAM 5.0
comes out with all these nice features to make our life easier but mix that
with all the serious problems we have encountered and all those nice
features seem to fade away. Not to mention the rumblings from the users as
why did they move this field or remove this button or how do I do this now
questions. Your annual updates seem to lack real substance or add new
features. The new modules you develop cost additional $$ to add their
functionality to the system. Give us some of those new modules included in
our maintenance and sell them to your new users!! Thus it seems that these
annual updates do nothing more than fix bugs and then create new bugs, mixed
with a few new touchy feely bells and whistles. I am really considering the
termination of this maintenance agreement do to its complete lack of
sustenance for the exuberant cost it entails. I am sure I am not alone on
this.

Unless I am convinced otherwise and I can convince the president of our
company who will not give you any money until the costing bug is fixed. I
almost lost my job over that!! So why should I give you tons of money each
year to risk the livelihood of my family due to the complete lack of testing
on your companies part? We are not beta testers when the final release is
sent out!!! If we are then this CD needs to say beta on it so our database
can remain entact!! The bugs in 5.0 are not just little things that you can
live with. Those bugs should be fixed even if I am not on maintenance since
your programmers caused them.

A few things you will need to agree to before I would sign a maintenance
agreement
- Patches should be readily available free of ANY charge. Even
without maintenance.
- Complete disclosure of bugs fixed and not fixed, make the
programmers accountable for their work!
- Two day response time to critical bugs. Fix included.
- Issue non-critical patches weekly vs. monthly.
- Confirm with customer before a tech call is closed.
- Option to add two new modules to existing system FREE each year.

Anyone care to add to this list?

Matt, I am not trying to pick on you but I know this is a sore subject with
us and I must speak my mind freely. My company has been discussing this a
lot and I just thought you would like to know where we stand. No offense
intended to you personally.

Regards,

Darren Mann
Miller Products Co.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Christus [mailto:mchristus@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 9:08 AM
> To: 'dmann@...'
> Subject: RE: Vantage Maintenance Renewal
>
>
> Good morning,
>
> Our records show that your maintenance on the Epicor
> eManufacturing/Vantage
> application will be expiring at the end of the month, March 31st.
>
> This maintenance covers the use of support via phone, fax and
> the internet.
> Along with the support, you also receive access to our knowledgebase,
> customer center web site, and all patches and commercial
> releases over the
> next year.
>
> I encourage you to contact me if you have any questions regarding the
> invoice you have received, or on the maintenance plan itself.
>
> Thank you in advance for your renewal.
>
> Matthew Christus
> Manager of Technical Support
> epicor Software Corporation
> email: mchristus@...
> phone:(952) 417-5267
> fax: (952) 582-5508
> EraNet: http://www.epicor.com
>
>



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