Progress-OpenEdge

They use a "Dataserver" layer that translates the native Progress calls into
calls to the selected third party database. I'm not absolutely sure if they
still require that the meta schema reside in a Progress database but,
frankly, I would be surprised if it doesn't. I can't imagine a business
situation where it would make sense for Progress to create a database
agnostic system and not make certain that their native DBMS would radically
outperform other alternatives.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Leonard [mailto:jeremy.leonard@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:09 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Progress-OpenEdge

But if I am not mistaken it still uses ODBC to connect to those Databases
with the exception of Progress. Is this correct? If it does, then I would
assume that there is still the same issues with performance that exists with
SQL Server for example and Vantage 5.x and 6.x.

Jeremy


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Barry [mailto:mbarry@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 11:05 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Progress-OpenEdge



OpenEdge includes Progress 10 but is more than just a database upgrade.
OpenEdge is Progress Software's effort to move to a J2EE compliant
application server architecture where application logic is abstracted from
the presentation layer and database and is encapsulated in a middle tier of
server side business objects.

Earlier versions of Progress attached business logic to both the
presentation layer with the Progress 4GL and to the Progress database in the
form of triggers. Open Edge moves the business logic to an application
server layer that is independent of its presentation or persistence. The
result is to make the use of a database (Progress, Oracle, SQL Server,
etc...) or a presentation (ie. Java, web, etc...) entirely up to the needs
of the user.

Michael

Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
http://www.aspacia.com/

This email, and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the
addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or
confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this
email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify me by
telephone and permanently delete the original and any copy of any email and
any printout thereof.

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Hoyt [mailto:hoyt@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 5:22 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Progress-OpenEdge

Ann,
My understanding is that OpenEdge is effectively Progress 10. The Beta CD
says nothing about progress, and the progress directory is named for Open
Edge (OE10...). I believe this is just Progress 10 by another name.
This is not official Progress or Epicor line, this is just my understanding.
Aaron Hoyt
Hittite Microwave

-----Original Message-----
From: amfabllc [mailto:amfab@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:27 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Progress-OpenEdge


Will OpenEdge be included in the Progress upgrade that we receive
from Epicor, or is it a separate purchase/option?

Thanks!
Ann
AMFAB


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Caughey" <caugheyt@h...>
wrote:
> OpenEdge is a new "layer" used by Vantage 8.0. It contains the
business "rules" as well as the .Net interface. So it sort of sits
in between the user interface (written with .Net) and the actual

database. This gives Vantage the flexibility to support other
databases (Oracle, DB2, SQL Server, etc...) without messing with the

data rules. The Progress RDBMS can still be used and probably would

be for most Vantage sites (better support, faster perhaps, easier
admin). Because the rules are independent from the user interface
this will afford a lot of flexibility to customize things. The .Net

interface also will hook up well with Crystal 10/11 making that the

choice for the most robust reporting requirements. There are also
the other query and export tools that might replace the more simple
RB reports.
>
> If you don't have a copy already I would highly recommend asking
your CAM for a copy of the "Sonoma Architecture Whitepaper".
Also
attending Perspectives would certainly fill in some concept gaps and

allow grilling the Epicor experts one-on-one.
>
> My understanding is that there may be a way to make existing RB
reports run with Progress 10 but only if there are no field changes
in all the tables being used and even then they will not run from
within the Vantage user interface. Just because it is technically
possible even in a limited way does not mean it is practical. I

will continue to write RB on an "as needed" basis, mostly for quick
hit one-off reports but at some point will start developing all new
reports in Crystal. Hardware infrastructure issues (servers and

client PC replacements) will put Vantage 8.0 off for us until at

least 2006 so I have a good 18 months to start converting the
400+
RB reports to Crystal. But I am not counting on any use of RB past
Vantage 6.1 miracle or not.
>
> -Todd C.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amfabllc [mailto:amfab@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 12:38 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Progress-OpenEdge
>
>
> I just received a mailing for Progress classes. One of the things

> in their agenda is 'OpenEdge'. "10 Good Reasons to Move to
OpenEdge
> 10";-it notes data comparing Progress Versions 8 and 9 with
OpenEdge
> 10 on identical hardware performing identical tasks. It also
talks
> about "Administering/Tuning Your OpenEdge RDBMS Database for
> Reporting". It does not appear to replace Report Builder because
in
> another paragraph it talks about "Enterprise Information:
Making
> Sense of Your Data - ...This session explores OpenEdge tools for
> transforming data to information. Since data has little relevance

> by itself, effectively generating usable information is
essential.
> This session will also feature information and a demonstration on
> Crystal Reports."
>
> Anyone know anything about Progress OpenEdge? We are still on

> Vantage 5.0 and NT4, I am trying to gather as much info as
possible
> to make the best decisions when update time does come, possibly
all
> the way to 8.0. If I do stop at 6.1 it will be due to the
hundreds
> of Report Builder Reports that I have written and are used daily.

> I'm still waiting for a miracle on that one.
>
> In 8.0, will current Report Builder reports run at all - meaning
you
> just can't add any new ones? Or does 8.0 not allow you to run any

> RB reports, new or old?
>
> And while I am asking various off the wall questions, what is the
> formula to use when deciding the limit on how many workstations
> should access a terminal (2003) server without overloading it?
>
> Just Curious,
> Thanks so much!!
>
> Ann Rohyans
> AMFAB
> amfab@a...
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note:
You
must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services
goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1298d9o5h/M=298184.5285298.6392945.30011

76/D=groups/S=1705007183:HM/EXP=1094665135/A=2319498/R=0/SIG=11thfntf
p/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185352&partid=5285298>
click here
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?

M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=groups/S=:HM/A=2319498/rand=435058
466>
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>
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>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage-
unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note:
You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links








Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links










Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
I just received a mailing for Progress classes. One of the things
in their agenda is 'OpenEdge'. "10 Good Reasons to Move to OpenEdge
10";-it notes data comparing Progress Versions 8 and 9 with OpenEdge
10 on identical hardware performing identical tasks. It also talks
about "Administering/Tuning Your OpenEdge RDBMS Database for
Reporting". It does not appear to replace Report Builder because in
another paragraph it talks about "Enterprise Information: Making
Sense of Your Data - ...This session explores OpenEdge tools for
transforming data to information. Since data has little relevance
by itself, effectively generating usable information is essential.
This session will also feature information and a demonstration on
Crystal Reports."

Anyone know anything about Progress OpenEdge? We are still on
Vantage 5.0 and NT4, I am trying to gather as much info as possible
to make the best decisions when update time does come, possibly all
the way to 8.0. If I do stop at 6.1 it will be due to the hundreds
of Report Builder Reports that I have written and are used daily.
I'm still waiting for a miracle on that one.

In 8.0, will current Report Builder reports run at all - meaning you
just can't add any new ones? Or does 8.0 not allow you to run any
RB reports, new or old?

And while I am asking various off the wall questions, what is the
formula to use when deciding the limit on how many workstations
should access a terminal (2003) server without overloading it?

Just Curious,
Thanks so much!!

Ann Rohyans
AMFAB
amfab@...
OpenEdge is a new "layer" used by Vantage 8.0. It contains the business "rules" as well as the .Net interface. So it sort of sits in between the user interface (written with .Net) and the actual database. This gives Vantage the flexibility to support other databases (Oracle, DB2, SQL Server, etc...) without messing with the data rules. The Progress RDBMS can still be used and probably would be for most Vantage sites (better support, faster perhaps, easier admin). Because the rules are independent from the user interface this will afford a lot of flexibility to customize things. The .Net interface also will hook up well with Crystal 10/11 making that the choice for the most robust reporting requirements. There are also the other query and export tools that might replace the more simple RB reports.

If you don't have a copy already I would highly recommend asking your CAM for a copy of the "Sonoma Architecture Whitepaper". Also attending Perspectives would certainly fill in some concept gaps and allow grilling the Epicor experts one-on-one.

My understanding is that there may be a way to make existing RB reports run with Progress 10 but only if there are no field changes in all the tables being used and even then they will not run from within the Vantage user interface. Just because it is technically possible even in a limited way does not mean it is practical. I will continue to write RB on an "as needed" basis, mostly for quick hit one-off reports but at some point will start developing all new reports in Crystal. Hardware infrastructure issues (servers and client PC replacements) will put Vantage 8.0 off for us until at least 2006 so I have a good 18 months to start converting the 400+ RB reports to Crystal. But I am not counting on any use of RB past Vantage 6.1 miracle or not.

-Todd C.


-----Original Message-----
From: amfabllc [mailto:amfab@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 12:38 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Progress-OpenEdge


I just received a mailing for Progress classes. One of the things
in their agenda is 'OpenEdge'. "10 Good Reasons to Move to OpenEdge
10";-it notes data comparing Progress Versions 8 and 9 with OpenEdge
10 on identical hardware performing identical tasks. It also talks
about "Administering/Tuning Your OpenEdge RDBMS Database for
Reporting". It does not appear to replace Report Builder because in
another paragraph it talks about "Enterprise Information: Making
Sense of Your Data - ...This session explores OpenEdge tools for
transforming data to information. Since data has little relevance
by itself, effectively generating usable information is essential.
This session will also feature information and a demonstration on
Crystal Reports."

Anyone know anything about Progress OpenEdge? We are still on
Vantage 5.0 and NT4, I am trying to gather as much info as possible
to make the best decisions when update time does come, possibly all
the way to 8.0. If I do stop at 6.1 it will be due to the hundreds
of Report Builder Reports that I have written and are used daily.
I'm still waiting for a miracle on that one.

In 8.0, will current Report Builder reports run at all - meaning you
just can't add any new ones? Or does 8.0 not allow you to run any
RB reports, new or old?

And while I am asking various off the wall questions, what is the
formula to use when deciding the limit on how many workstations
should access a terminal (2003) server without overloading it?

Just Curious,
Thanks so much!!

Ann Rohyans
AMFAB
amfab@...




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Will OpenEdge be included in the Progress upgrade that we receive
from Epicor, or is it a separate purchase/option?

Thanks!
Ann
AMFAB


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Caughey" <caugheyt@h...> wrote:
> OpenEdge is a new "layer" used by Vantage 8.0. It contains the
business "rules" as well as the .Net interface. So it sort of sits
in between the user interface (written with .Net) and the actual
database. This gives Vantage the flexibility to support other
databases (Oracle, DB2, SQL Server, etc...) without messing with the
data rules. The Progress RDBMS can still be used and probably would
be for most Vantage sites (better support, faster perhaps, easier
admin). Because the rules are independent from the user interface
this will afford a lot of flexibility to customize things. The .Net
interface also will hook up well with Crystal 10/11 making that the
choice for the most robust reporting requirements. There are also
the other query and export tools that might replace the more simple
RB reports.
>
> If you don't have a copy already I would highly recommend asking
your CAM for a copy of the "Sonoma Architecture Whitepaper". Also
attending Perspectives would certainly fill in some concept gaps and
allow grilling the Epicor experts one-on-one.
>
> My understanding is that there may be a way to make existing RB
reports run with Progress 10 but only if there are no field changes
in all the tables being used and even then they will not run from
within the Vantage user interface. Just because it is technically
possible even in a limited way does not mean it is practical. I
will continue to write RB on an "as needed" basis, mostly for quick
hit one-off reports but at some point will start developing all new
reports in Crystal. Hardware infrastructure issues (servers and
client PC replacements) will put Vantage 8.0 off for us until at
least 2006 so I have a good 18 months to start converting the 400+
RB reports to Crystal. But I am not counting on any use of RB past
Vantage 6.1 miracle or not.
>
> -Todd C.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amfabllc [mailto:amfab@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 12:38 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Progress-OpenEdge
>
>
> I just received a mailing for Progress classes. One of the things
> in their agenda is 'OpenEdge'. "10 Good Reasons to Move to
OpenEdge
> 10";-it notes data comparing Progress Versions 8 and 9 with
OpenEdge
> 10 on identical hardware performing identical tasks. It also
talks
> about "Administering/Tuning Your OpenEdge RDBMS Database for
> Reporting". It does not appear to replace Report Builder because
in
> another paragraph it talks about "Enterprise Information: Making
> Sense of Your Data - ...This session explores OpenEdge tools for
> transforming data to information. Since data has little relevance
> by itself, effectively generating usable information is
essential.
> This session will also feature information and a demonstration on
> Crystal Reports."
>
> Anyone know anything about Progress OpenEdge? We are still on
> Vantage 5.0 and NT4, I am trying to gather as much info as
possible
> to make the best decisions when update time does come, possibly
all
> the way to 8.0. If I do stop at 6.1 it will be due to the
hundreds
> of Report Builder Reports that I have written and are used daily.
> I'm still waiting for a miracle on that one.
>
> In 8.0, will current Report Builder reports run at all - meaning
you
> just can't add any new ones? Or does 8.0 not allow you to run any
> RB reports, new or old?
>
> And while I am asking various off the wall questions, what is the
> formula to use when deciding the limit on how many workstations
> should access a terminal (2003) server without overloading it?
>
> Just Curious,
> Thanks so much!!
>
> Ann Rohyans
> AMFAB
> amfab@a...
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1298d9o5h/M=298184.5285298.6392945.30011
76/D=groups/S=1705007183:HM/EXP=1094665135/A=2319498/R=0/SIG=11thfntf
p/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185352&partid=5285298>
click here
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=groups/S=:HM/A=2319498/rand=435058
466>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage-
unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, it better be because nothing will run in 8.0 without it. If you are on maintenance it should all come like any other upgrade. It should work just like now where the Progress 9 license is part of the package.

I see though in the whitepaper that there is to be an optional (at extra cost) "Advanced Customization" module but this is different than OpenEdge. I have not heard much of this yet. It is supposed to include:
-Source code to all Sonoma forms
-Visual Studio .Net
-Infragistics Controls (advanced ui control objects)
-Business Logic Toolset
- Progress AppBuilder
- Object Design Tool
....All of which is supposed to allow creating additions and extensions to the applications using the same tools as the Epicor developers and to embed them in Vantage 8.0 "as though it were part of the base system." But note this does not directly involve OpenEdge - the underlaying business logic and data structure are off-limits.

But the base system will have plenty of form customization capability without the advanced module - including VBscripts within the forms. More than enough to get me in trouble. ;)

-Todd C.

-----Original Message-----
From: amfabllc [mailto:amfab@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 2:27 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Progress-OpenEdge


Will OpenEdge be included in the Progress upgrade that we receive
from Epicor, or is it a separate purchase/option?

Thanks!
Ann
AMFAB


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Caughey" <caugheyt@h...> wrote:
> OpenEdge is a new "layer" used by Vantage 8.0. It contains the
business "rules" as well as the .Net interface. So it sort of sits
in between the user interface (written with .Net) and the actual
database. This gives Vantage the flexibility to support other
databases (Oracle, DB2, SQL Server, etc...) without messing with the
data rules. The Progress RDBMS can still be used and probably would
be for most Vantage sites (better support, faster perhaps, easier
admin). Because the rules are independent from the user interface
this will afford a lot of flexibility to customize things. The .Net
interface also will hook up well with Crystal 10/11 making that the
choice for the most robust reporting requirements. There are also
the other query and export tools that might replace the more simple
RB reports.
>
> If you don't have a copy already I would highly recommend asking
your CAM for a copy of the "Sonoma Architecture Whitepaper". Also
attending Perspectives would certainly fill in some concept gaps and
allow grilling the Epicor experts one-on-one.
>
> My understanding is that there may be a way to make existing RB
reports run with Progress 10 but only if there are no field changes
in all the tables being used and even then they will not run from
within the Vantage user interface. Just because it is technically
possible even in a limited way does not mean it is practical. I
will continue to write RB on an "as needed" basis, mostly for quick
hit one-off reports but at some point will start developing all new
reports in Crystal. Hardware infrastructure issues (servers and
client PC replacements) will put Vantage 8.0 off for us until at
least 2006 so I have a good 18 months to start converting the 400+
RB reports to Crystal. But I am not counting on any use of RB past
Vantage 6.1 miracle or not.
>
> -Todd C.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amfabllc [mailto:amfab@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 12:38 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Progress-OpenEdge
>
>
> I just received a mailing for Progress classes. One of the things
> in their agenda is 'OpenEdge'. "10 Good Reasons to Move to
OpenEdge
> 10";-it notes data comparing Progress Versions 8 and 9 with
OpenEdge
> 10 on identical hardware performing identical tasks. It also
talks
> about "Administering/Tuning Your OpenEdge RDBMS Database for
> Reporting". It does not appear to replace Report Builder because
in
> another paragraph it talks about "Enterprise Information: Making
> Sense of Your Data - ...This session explores OpenEdge tools for
> transforming data to information. Since data has little relevance
> by itself, effectively generating usable information is
essential.
> This session will also feature information and a demonstration on
> Crystal Reports."
>
> Anyone know anything about Progress OpenEdge? We are still on
> Vantage 5.0 and NT4, I am trying to gather as much info as
possible
> to make the best decisions when update time does come, possibly
all
> the way to 8.0. If I do stop at 6.1 it will be due to the
hundreds
> of Report Builder Reports that I have written and are used daily.
> I'm still waiting for a miracle on that one.
>
> In 8.0, will current Report Builder reports run at all - meaning
you
> just can't add any new ones? Or does 8.0 not allow you to run any
> RB reports, new or old?
>
> And while I am asking various off the wall questions, what is the
> formula to use when deciding the limit on how many workstations
> should access a terminal (2003) server without overloading it?
>
> Just Curious,
> Thanks so much!!
>
> Ann Rohyans
> AMFAB
> amfab@a...
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You
must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
< http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1298d9o5h/M=298184.5285298.6392945.30011
76/D=groups/S=1705007183:HM/EXP=1094665135/A=2319498/R=0/SIG=11thfntf
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>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage-
unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ann,
My understanding is that OpenEdge is effectively Progress 10. The Beta
CD says nothing about progress, and the progress directory is named for
Open Edge (OE10...). I believe this is just Progress 10 by another
name.
This is not official Progress or Epicor line, this is just my
understanding.
Aaron Hoyt
Hittite Microwave

-----Original Message-----
From: amfabllc [mailto:amfab@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:27 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Progress-OpenEdge


Will OpenEdge be included in the Progress upgrade that we
receive
from Epicor, or is it a separate purchase/option?

Thanks!
Ann
AMFAB


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Caughey" <caugheyt@h...>
wrote:
> OpenEdge is a new "layer" used by Vantage 8.0. It contains
the
business "rules" as well as the .Net interface. So it sort of
sits
in between the user interface (written with .Net) and the actual

database. This gives Vantage the flexibility to support other
databases (Oracle, DB2, SQL Server, etc...) without messing with
the
data rules. The Progress RDBMS can still be used and probably
would
be for most Vantage sites (better support, faster perhaps,
easier
admin). Because the rules are independent from the user
interface
this will afford a lot of flexibility to customize things. The
.Net
interface also will hook up well with Crystal 10/11 making that
the
choice for the most robust reporting requirements. There are
also
the other query and export tools that might replace the more
simple
RB reports.
>
> If you don't have a copy already I would highly recommend
asking
your CAM for a copy of the "Sonoma Architecture Whitepaper".
Also
attending Perspectives would certainly fill in some concept gaps
and
allow grilling the Epicor experts one-on-one.
>
> My understanding is that there may be a way to make existing
RB
reports run with Progress 10 but only if there are no field
changes
in all the tables being used and even then they will not run
from
within the Vantage user interface. Just because it is
technically
possible even in a limited way does not mean it is practical. I

will continue to write RB on an "as needed" basis, mostly for
quick
hit one-off reports but at some point will start developing all
new
reports in Crystal. Hardware infrastructure issues (servers and

client PC replacements) will put Vantage 8.0 off for us until at

least 2006 so I have a good 18 months to start converting the
400+
RB reports to Crystal. But I am not counting on any use of RB
past
Vantage 6.1 miracle or not.
>
> -Todd C.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amfabllc [mailto:amfab@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 12:38 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Progress-OpenEdge
>
>
> I just received a mailing for Progress classes. One of the
things
> in their agenda is 'OpenEdge'. "10 Good Reasons to Move to
OpenEdge
> 10";-it notes data comparing Progress Versions 8 and 9 with
OpenEdge
> 10 on identical hardware performing identical tasks. It also
talks
> about "Administering/Tuning Your OpenEdge RDBMS Database for
> Reporting". It does not appear to replace Report Builder
because
in
> another paragraph it talks about "Enterprise Information:
Making
> Sense of Your Data - ...This session explores OpenEdge tools
for
> transforming data to information. Since data has little
relevance
> by itself, effectively generating usable information is
essential.
> This session will also feature information and a demonstration
on
> Crystal Reports."
>
> Anyone know anything about Progress OpenEdge? We are still on

> Vantage 5.0 and NT4, I am trying to gather as much info as
possible
> to make the best decisions when update time does come,
possibly
all
> the way to 8.0. If I do stop at 6.1 it will be due to the
hundreds
> of Report Builder Reports that I have written and are used
daily.
> I'm still waiting for a miracle on that one.
>
> In 8.0, will current Report Builder reports run at all -
meaning
you
> just can't add any new ones? Or does 8.0 not allow you to run
any
> RB reports, new or old?
>
> And while I am asking various off the wall questions, what is
the
> formula to use when deciding the limit on how many
workstations
> should access a terminal (2003) server without overloading it?
>
> Just Curious,
> Thanks so much!!
>
> Ann Rohyans
> AMFAB
> amfab@a...
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note:
You
must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to
enable
access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services
goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1298d9o5h/M=298184.5285298.6392945.30011

76/D=groups/S=1705007183:HM/EXP=1094665135/A=2319498/R=0/SIG=11thfntf
p/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185352&partid=5285298>
click here
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?

M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=groups/S=:HM/A=2319498/rand=435058
466>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage-
unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note:
You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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D=groups/S=1705007183:HM/EXP=1094671632/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*htt
p://companion.yahoo.com>

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* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OpenEdge includes Progress 10 but is more than just a database upgrade.
OpenEdge is Progress Software's effort to move to a J2EE compliant
application server architecture where application logic is abstracted from
the presentation layer and database and is encapsulated in a middle tier of
server side business objects.

Earlier versions of Progress attached business logic to both the
presentation layer with the Progress 4GL and to the Progress database in the
form of triggers. Open Edge moves the business logic to an application
server layer that is independent of its presentation or persistence. The
result is to make the use of a database (Progress, Oracle, SQL Server,
etc...) or a presentation (ie. Java, web, etc...) entirely up to the needs
of the user.

Michael

Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
http://www.aspacia.com/

This email, and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the
addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or
confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this
email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify me by
telephone and permanently delete the original and any copy of any email and
any printout thereof.

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Hoyt [mailto:hoyt@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 5:22 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Progress-OpenEdge

Ann,
My understanding is that OpenEdge is effectively Progress 10. The Beta CD
says nothing about progress, and the progress directory is named for Open
Edge (OE10...). I believe this is just Progress 10 by another name.
This is not official Progress or Epicor line, this is just my understanding.
Aaron Hoyt
Hittite Microwave

-----Original Message-----
From: amfabllc [mailto:amfab@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:27 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Progress-OpenEdge


Will OpenEdge be included in the Progress upgrade that we receive
from Epicor, or is it a separate purchase/option?

Thanks!
Ann
AMFAB


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Caughey" <caugheyt@h...>
wrote:
> OpenEdge is a new "layer" used by Vantage 8.0. It contains the
business "rules" as well as the .Net interface. So it sort of sits
in between the user interface (written with .Net) and the actual

database. This gives Vantage the flexibility to support other
databases (Oracle, DB2, SQL Server, etc...) without messing with the

data rules. The Progress RDBMS can still be used and probably would

be for most Vantage sites (better support, faster perhaps, easier
admin). Because the rules are independent from the user interface
this will afford a lot of flexibility to customize things. The .Net

interface also will hook up well with Crystal 10/11 making that the

choice for the most robust reporting requirements. There are also
the other query and export tools that might replace the more simple
RB reports.
>
> If you don't have a copy already I would highly recommend asking
your CAM for a copy of the "Sonoma Architecture Whitepaper".
Also
attending Perspectives would certainly fill in some concept gaps and

allow grilling the Epicor experts one-on-one.
>
> My understanding is that there may be a way to make existing RB
reports run with Progress 10 but only if there are no field changes
in all the tables being used and even then they will not run from
within the Vantage user interface. Just because it is technically
possible even in a limited way does not mean it is practical. I

will continue to write RB on an "as needed" basis, mostly for quick
hit one-off reports but at some point will start developing all new
reports in Crystal. Hardware infrastructure issues (servers and

client PC replacements) will put Vantage 8.0 off for us until at

least 2006 so I have a good 18 months to start converting the
400+
RB reports to Crystal. But I am not counting on any use of RB past
Vantage 6.1 miracle or not.
>
> -Todd C.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amfabllc [mailto:amfab@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 12:38 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Progress-OpenEdge
>
>
> I just received a mailing for Progress classes. One of the things

> in their agenda is 'OpenEdge'. "10 Good Reasons to Move to
OpenEdge
> 10";-it notes data comparing Progress Versions 8 and 9 with
OpenEdge
> 10 on identical hardware performing identical tasks. It also
talks
> about "Administering/Tuning Your OpenEdge RDBMS Database for
> Reporting". It does not appear to replace Report Builder because
in
> another paragraph it talks about "Enterprise Information:
Making
> Sense of Your Data - ...This session explores OpenEdge tools for
> transforming data to information. Since data has little relevance

> by itself, effectively generating usable information is
essential.
> This session will also feature information and a demonstration on
> Crystal Reports."
>
> Anyone know anything about Progress OpenEdge? We are still on

> Vantage 5.0 and NT4, I am trying to gather as much info as
possible
> to make the best decisions when update time does come, possibly
all
> the way to 8.0. If I do stop at 6.1 it will be due to the
hundreds
> of Report Builder Reports that I have written and are used daily.

> I'm still waiting for a miracle on that one.
>
> In 8.0, will current Report Builder reports run at all - meaning
you
> just can't add any new ones? Or does 8.0 not allow you to run any

> RB reports, new or old?
>
> And while I am asking various off the wall questions, what is the
> formula to use when deciding the limit on how many workstations
> should access a terminal (2003) server without overloading it?
>
> Just Curious,
> Thanks so much!!
>
> Ann Rohyans
> AMFAB
> amfab@a...
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note:
You
must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services
goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1298d9o5h/M=298184.5285298.6392945.30011

76/D=groups/S=1705007183:HM/EXP=1094665135/A=2319498/R=0/SIG=11thfntf
p/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185352&partid=5285298>
click here
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?

M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=groups/S=:HM/A=2319498/rand=435058
466>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage-
unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note:
You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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p://companion.yahoo.com>

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* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
But if I am not mistaken it still uses ODBC to connect to those Databases with the exception of Progress. Is this correct? If it does, then I would assume that there is still the same issues with performance that exists with SQL Server for example and Vantage 5.x and 6.x.

Jeremy


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Barry [mailto:mbarry@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 11:05 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Progress-OpenEdge



OpenEdge includes Progress 10 but is more than just a database upgrade.
OpenEdge is Progress Software's effort to move to a J2EE compliant
application server architecture where application logic is abstracted from
the presentation layer and database and is encapsulated in a middle tier of
server side business objects.

Earlier versions of Progress attached business logic to both the
presentation layer with the Progress 4GL and to the Progress database in the
form of triggers. Open Edge moves the business logic to an application
server layer that is independent of its presentation or persistence. The
result is to make the use of a database (Progress, Oracle, SQL Server,
etc...) or a presentation (ie. Java, web, etc...) entirely up to the needs
of the user.

Michael

Michael Barry
Aspacia Systems Inc
866.566.9600
312.803.0730 fax
http://www.aspacia.com/

This email, and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the
addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or
confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this
email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify me by
telephone and permanently delete the original and any copy of any email and
any printout thereof.

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Hoyt [mailto:hoyt@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 5:22 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Progress-OpenEdge

Ann,
My understanding is that OpenEdge is effectively Progress 10. The Beta CD
says nothing about progress, and the progress directory is named for Open
Edge (OE10...). I believe this is just Progress 10 by another name.
This is not official Progress or Epicor line, this is just my understanding.
Aaron Hoyt
Hittite Microwave

-----Original Message-----
From: amfabllc [mailto:amfab@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:27 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Progress-OpenEdge


Will OpenEdge be included in the Progress upgrade that we receive
from Epicor, or is it a separate purchase/option?

Thanks!
Ann
AMFAB


--- In vantage@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Caughey" <caugheyt@h...>
wrote:
> OpenEdge is a new "layer" used by Vantage 8.0. It contains the
business "rules" as well as the .Net interface. So it sort of sits
in between the user interface (written with .Net) and the actual

database. This gives Vantage the flexibility to support other
databases (Oracle, DB2, SQL Server, etc...) without messing with the

data rules. The Progress RDBMS can still be used and probably would

be for most Vantage sites (better support, faster perhaps, easier
admin). Because the rules are independent from the user interface
this will afford a lot of flexibility to customize things. The .Net

interface also will hook up well with Crystal 10/11 making that the

choice for the most robust reporting requirements. There are also
the other query and export tools that might replace the more simple
RB reports.
>
> If you don't have a copy already I would highly recommend asking
your CAM for a copy of the "Sonoma Architecture Whitepaper".
Also
attending Perspectives would certainly fill in some concept gaps and

allow grilling the Epicor experts one-on-one.
>
> My understanding is that there may be a way to make existing RB
reports run with Progress 10 but only if there are no field changes
in all the tables being used and even then they will not run from
within the Vantage user interface. Just because it is technically
possible even in a limited way does not mean it is practical. I

will continue to write RB on an "as needed" basis, mostly for quick
hit one-off reports but at some point will start developing all new
reports in Crystal. Hardware infrastructure issues (servers and

client PC replacements) will put Vantage 8.0 off for us until at

least 2006 so I have a good 18 months to start converting the
400+
RB reports to Crystal. But I am not counting on any use of RB past
Vantage 6.1 miracle or not.
>
> -Todd C.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amfabllc [mailto:amfab@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 12:38 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] Progress-OpenEdge
>
>
> I just received a mailing for Progress classes. One of the things

> in their agenda is 'OpenEdge'. "10 Good Reasons to Move to
OpenEdge
> 10";-it notes data comparing Progress Versions 8 and 9 with
OpenEdge
> 10 on identical hardware performing identical tasks. It also
talks
> about "Administering/Tuning Your OpenEdge RDBMS Database for
> Reporting". It does not appear to replace Report Builder because
in
> another paragraph it talks about "Enterprise Information:
Making
> Sense of Your Data - ...This session explores OpenEdge tools for
> transforming data to information. Since data has little relevance

> by itself, effectively generating usable information is
essential.
> This session will also feature information and a demonstration on
> Crystal Reports."
>
> Anyone know anything about Progress OpenEdge? We are still on

> Vantage 5.0 and NT4, I am trying to gather as much info as
possible
> to make the best decisions when update time does come, possibly
all
> the way to 8.0. If I do stop at 6.1 it will be due to the
hundreds
> of Report Builder Reports that I have written and are used daily.

> I'm still waiting for a miracle on that one.
>
> In 8.0, will current Report Builder reports run at all - meaning
you
> just can't add any new ones? Or does 8.0 not allow you to run any

> RB reports, new or old?
>
> And while I am asking various off the wall questions, what is the
> formula to use when deciding the limit on how many workstations
> should access a terminal (2003) server without overloading it?
>
> Just Curious,
> Thanks so much!!
>
> Ann Rohyans
> AMFAB
> amfab@a...
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note:
You
must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services
goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
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>

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> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage-
unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note:
You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable
access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report
Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



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________________________________

Yahoo! Groups Links


* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links








Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links