SQL Server with Vantage 8

For those who are currently running on SQL server, what is your hardware configuration like? Do you have two servers, one for SQL server and one for the Progress DB? Or, can they be installed on one server?

We are trying to implement v8, and are wondering if it would be worthwhile to make the change over to SQL right now, before we go live. I wonder how easy it would be to move our test database over to SQL?

Gavin Davidson <gavinjd68@...> wrote:
OK, I have been corrected.

The SmartClient is 100% C#.

All the progress db has is a schema holder for the code, absolutely no data.
All the data is in SQL Server and speed should be comparable to Progress.

Gavin

the progress db has is a schema holder for the code, absolutely no data..
All the data is in SQL Server, nothing is the progress db.

On 11/3/05, Gavin Davidson <gavinjd68@...> wrote:
>
> Its my understanding that as of 8.0 MS SQL should be pretty much on a
> level pegging with Progress.
>
> Part of the problem is that most of the Epicor guys are more familiar with
> progress and so they naturally recommend what they know more about.
>
> I for one much prefer MS SQL.
>
> Vantage 8 will still use the OpenEdge (Progress) smart client so there is
> still a progress piece there, but everything else is SQL - I know that they
> have been working closely with Microsoft to make Vantage run just as fast on
> MS SQL as progress.
>
> Gavin
>
>
> On 11/3/05, John Sykes <john.sykes@...> wrote:
> >
> > Here's my understanding re: Vantage 8, Progress and MS SQL. It's based
> > on my direct experience, discussions with Epicor Support/Product
> > Management and info gleaned from others on/in this forum.
> >
> > Even in a "SQL" Installation, there ARE some Progress Databases that
> > maintain the metadata about the table layouts, columns, etc. that hold
> > the Vantage data in the SQL databases. The Progress databases are
> > completely expendable in a disaster situation -- i.e. all of YOUR
> > critical data IS stored in the SQL Server tables/databases (but under
> > the hood, Vantage relies some small Progress databases to direct Vantage
> > data to the appropriate/underlying SQL tables....)
> >
> > Again, even in a "pure" SQL environment, you will have Progress DB bits,
> > in addition to the entire Progress Open Edge environment. This is
> > actually a good thing if you buy into the whole Vantage vision of smart
> > clients, SOA, etc. The inconsequential (but required...) Progress
> > databases simply hold meta-information that direct the Vantage services
> > to the appropriate SQL tables to hold "your" data.
> >
> > What this means in a disaster recovery situation is, is that as long as
> > your SQL tables/databases are backed up and you have a great plan to
> > recover them, you should be "OK" it sh!# happens. Yeah it's a pain in
> > the @$$ to restore the OE/Vantage environment, but you will not be
> > totally screwed and you could recover in a couple of hours even if you
> > had to bring everything up from bare metal with only the original OS and
> > Application media (and no backups of the OE/Vantage server -- document,
> > document, document!) Again, you'd be COMPLETELY SOL if you didn't have
> > good/clean backups of the SQL databases (because that's where ALL of
> > YOUR data is stored...)
> >
> > There's a "bug" in the OE/Vantage installer -- It requires that you have
> > a LOCAL copy of SQL Server installed in order to initially install V8.
> > This was an inconvenience for us as we have a dedicated, separate SQL
> > Server. To get the initial installation, we had to install a copy of SQL
> > Server on our V8 Application Server. Once installed, however, it was a
> > slam-dunk to move the database using the DTS import/export tool. What's
> > really very cool, too, is that the V8 server simply needs an ODBC
> > connection to "talk" to the right SQL database -- the net effect being,
> > that once I had the installed database moved to our dedicated SQL
> > Server, it was simply a matter of updating the ODBC item on the V8 App
> > Server to direct it to our SQL Server (by the way, we use a dedicated
> > GB-GB link between our SQL and V8 App Servers....).
> >
> > Confessions/Notes: I've "inadvertantly" tested this -- long story -- My
> > first Vantage patch application <-- Argh! -- it functions as above.
> > Yeah, I was surprised by the Progress bits at first, but I'm okay with
> > it now --> I wanted a "pure" environment, but it seems to "just work"
> > and I have no complaints.
> >
> > Lastly, (sounding like a broken record here...), this is our assessment
> > of the whole SQL vs. Progress thing:
> >
> > "I posted this in early September. While we're not in a position to do a
> >
> > direct comparison (i.e. we don't have 8.0 on a Progress-only
> > environment, too...), there seems to be no current downside to being on
> > SQL. It just works and, in our case, I don't feel like we are a second
> > class citizen since we're running on/under SQL Server. By the way, when
> > SQL Server 2005 is certified, things are likely to get even better in
> > terms of being able to manage/optimize the system. There was an
> > effective presentation at Perspectives this year making that point. My
> > opinion of our SQL-based implementation has not changed in the nearly 60
> >
> > days since the following was originally posted:
> >
> > We're a new Vantage 8.0.802b customer and are using SQL Server 2000. We
> > did a ton of due diligence on the database selection issue and we
> > learned from Epicor that prior to 8.0 there were SIGNIFICANT advantages
> > to being on Progress. With the new Progress OpenEdge 10.0 development
> > environment that is the foundation for the 8.0 Vantage product, it's my
> > understanding that the gap has been substantially narrowed and that a
> > "native" Progress installation will only have a 3 to 4% performance edge
> > over a SQL-based installation. The message I got from very seasoned
> > Epicor sources was "Go with what you've got -- If you're already
> > supporting a SQL Server and know how to administer it, you're better off
> > sticking with it"
> >
> > I gave Epicor every opportunity to tell me to use Progress and they
> > stuck to the "Go with what you know" line. We're not yet in production
> > and I have no historical basis for comparison, but the development and
> > test environments we're running are certainly not DB-bound from what I
> > can tell."
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > John Sykes
> > Director, IT
> > Kaleidescape, Inc.
> > 650.625.6161 O
> > 209.795.4588 M
> > 650.625.6101 F
> > mailto:john.sykes@...
> > www.kaleidescape.com <http://www.kaleidescape.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> > Of Comeau, Steven
> > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:09 AM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [Vantage] SQL Server with Vantage 8
> >
> > I was told that Vantage for MSSQL has Progress installed also and that
> > SQL sits on top of Progress. When we went with V8, I stayed with
> > Progress, but now have a dedicated DBA, I think I would have liked the
> > SQL version in that there are more DBAs available with SQL experience
> > than with Progress.
> >
> >
> >
> > Steven Comeau
> > Manager of Corporate IT Systems
> > Main Tape
> > 1 Capital Drive, Suite 101
> > Cranbury, NJ 08512
> > 1-800-526-8273 x332
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: kpotratz_05 [mailto: kpotratz_05@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 12:01 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Vantage] SQL Server with Vantage 8
> >
> >
> >
> > I am wondering if anyone can clear something up for me. I have noticed
> > posts regarding some companies who are running Vantage 8 with SQL
> > server. This is something I was interested in doing, as I was
> > previously a SQL admin. However, at purchase time I was told I should
> > stay away from SQL, because Vantage would not soley run on SQL.
> > Basically, I was told that I would have to configure Vantage on
> > Progress, and there would be a connector between the Progress database
> > and the SQL databases. The data would then copy from Progress to SQL.
> > They told me that unless I had a copy of SQL just sitting around that I
> > could use for this, it would be a waste of money because it truely
> > would not be running off of SQL. Can anyone clear this up for me? Is
> > anyone running Vantage 8.0 only on SQL, no Progress involved in their
> > configuration? Thanks in advance!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> > have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> > (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
> > and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
> > (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> > (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> >
> > * Visit your group "vantage
> > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> > have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> > (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
> > and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> > (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> > (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> > have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> > (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
> > and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> > (2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> >
> > (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Gavin Davidson
> Manufacturing Systems Corp




--
Gavin Davidson
Manufacturing Systems Corp


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am wondering if anyone can clear something up for me. I have noticed
posts regarding some companies who are running Vantage 8 with SQL
server. This is something I was interested in doing, as I was
previously a SQL admin. However, at purchase time I was told I should
stay away from SQL, because Vantage would not soley run on SQL.
Basically, I was told that I would have to configure Vantage on
Progress, and there would be a connector between the Progress database
and the SQL databases. The data would then copy from Progress to SQL.
They told me that unless I had a copy of SQL just sitting around that I
could use for this, it would be a waste of money because it truely
would not be running off of SQL. Can anyone clear this up for me? Is
anyone running Vantage 8.0 only on SQL, no Progress involved in their
configuration? Thanks in advance!
I was told that Vantage for MSSQL has Progress installed also and that
SQL sits on top of Progress. When we went with V8, I stayed with
Progress, but now have a dedicated DBA, I think I would have liked the
SQL version in that there are more DBAs available with SQL experience
than with Progress.



Steven Comeau
Manager of Corporate IT Systems
Main Tape
1 Capital Drive, Suite 101
Cranbury, NJ 08512
1-800-526-8273 x332

_____

From: kpotratz_05 [mailto:kpotratz_05@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 12:01 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] SQL Server with Vantage 8



I am wondering if anyone can clear something up for me. I have noticed
posts regarding some companies who are running Vantage 8 with SQL
server. This is something I was interested in doing, as I was
previously a SQL admin. However, at purchase time I was told I should
stay away from SQL, because Vantage would not soley run on SQL.
Basically, I was told that I would have to configure Vantage on
Progress, and there would be a connector between the Progress database
and the SQL databases. The data would then copy from Progress to SQL.
They told me that unless I had a copy of SQL just sitting around that I
could use for this, it would be a waste of money because it truely
would not be running off of SQL. Can anyone clear this up for me? Is
anyone running Vantage 8.0 only on SQL, no Progress involved in their
configuration? Thanks in advance!





Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .



_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Perhaps someone with more current 8.0 info could chime in (especially if I am not correct in the following) but the info you were given sounds a lot like the story for Vantage 6.1 and prior. 8.0 has an additional "layer" involved with Progress OpenEdge between the UI and the actual DB for handling the business logic. So you always end up with at least the OpenEdge part of Progress. Even if you run a Progress DB you have Open Edge on top of Progress the same as you would on top of SQL Server. 8.0 is a lot more "open" about what database engine actually stores the data but Vantage still requires the OpenEdge business logic component to establish the "rules" and database consistancy (if that's the right word). The advantages to using SQL Server or Progress (or Oracle or whatever...) are in what you are most familiar with for administering and also what sorts of external "hooks" and tools you want to use with the database.

Personally I like Progress and have found it to be very stable and "hands off" and the Epicor support people seem to be a bit more knowledgable about it. And in 8.0 , with the OpenEdge component inolved, there would seems to be a lower chance of finger pointing. For a "new" implementation SQL Server might be worth looking at but as a "upgrade" scenario we have already paid for Progress so it would be hard to justify a swtich unless there were compeling external reasons (need to integrate a 3rd party app or parent company demands, etc..).

-Todd C.

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of kpotratz_05
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:01 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] SQL Server with Vantage 8


I am wondering if anyone can clear something up for me. I have noticed
posts regarding some companies who are running Vantage 8 with SQL
server. This is something I was interested in doing, as I was
previously a SQL admin. However, at purchase time I was told I should
stay away from SQL, because Vantage would not soley run on SQL.
Basically, I was told that I would have to configure Vantage on
Progress, and there would be a connector between the Progress database
and the SQL databases. The data would then copy from Progress to SQL.
They told me that unless I had a copy of SQL just sitting around that I
could use for this, it would be a waste of money because it truely
would not be running off of SQL. Can anyone clear this up for me? Is
anyone running Vantage 8.0 only on SQL, no Progress involved in their
configuration? Thanks in advance!





Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group " vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here's my understanding re: Vantage 8, Progress and MS SQL. It's based
on my direct experience, discussions with Epicor Support/Product
Management and info gleaned from others on/in this forum.

Even in a "SQL" Installation, there ARE some Progress Databases that
maintain the metadata about the table layouts, columns, etc. that hold
the Vantage data in the SQL databases. The Progress databases are
completely expendable in a disaster situation -- i.e. all of YOUR
critical data IS stored in the SQL Server tables/databases (but under
the hood, Vantage relies some small Progress databases to direct Vantage
data to the appropriate/underlying SQL tables....)

Again, even in a "pure" SQL environment, you will have Progress DB bits,
in addition to the entire Progress Open Edge environment. This is
actually a good thing if you buy into the whole Vantage vision of smart
clients, SOA, etc. The inconsequential (but required...) Progress
databases simply hold meta-information that direct the Vantage services
to the appropriate SQL tables to hold "your" data.

What this means in a disaster recovery situation is, is that as long as
your SQL tables/databases are backed up and you have a great plan to
recover them, you should be "OK" it sh!# happens. Yeah it's a pain in
the @$$ to restore the OE/Vantage environment, but you will not be
totally screwed and you could recover in a couple of hours even if you
had to bring everything up from bare metal with only the original OS and
Application media (and no backups of the OE/Vantage server -- document,
document, document!) Again, you'd be COMPLETELY SOL if you didn't have
good/clean backups of the SQL databases (because that's where ALL of
YOUR data is stored...)

There's a "bug" in the OE/Vantage installer -- It requires that you have
a LOCAL copy of SQL Server installed in order to initially install V8.
This was an inconvenience for us as we have a dedicated, separate SQL
Server. To get the initial installation, we had to install a copy of SQL
Server on our V8 Application Server. Once installed, however, it was a
slam-dunk to move the database using the DTS import/export tool. What's
really very cool, too, is that the V8 server simply needs an ODBC
connection to "talk" to the right SQL database -- the net effect being,
that once I had the installed database moved to our dedicated SQL
Server, it was simply a matter of updating the ODBC item on the V8 App
Server to direct it to our SQL Server (by the way, we use a dedicated
GB-GB link between our SQL and V8 App Servers....).

Confessions/Notes: I've "inadvertantly" tested this -- long story -- My
first Vantage patch application <-- Argh! -- it functions as above.
Yeah, I was surprised by the Progress bits at first, but I'm okay with
it now --> I wanted a "pure" environment, but it seems to "just work"
and I have no complaints.

Lastly, (sounding like a broken record here...), this is our assessment
of the whole SQL vs. Progress thing:

"I posted this in early September. While we're not in a position to do a
direct comparison (i.e. we don't have 8.0 on a Progress-only
environment, too...), there seems to be no current downside to being on
SQL. It just works and, in our case, I don't feel like we are a second
class citizen since we're running on/under SQL Server. By the way, when
SQL Server 2005 is certified, things are likely to get even better in
terms of being able to manage/optimize the system. There was an
effective presentation at Perspectives this year making that point. My
opinion of our SQL-based implementation has not changed in the nearly 60
days since the following was originally posted:

We're a new Vantage 8.0.802b customer and are using SQL Server 2000. We
did a ton of due diligence on the database selection issue and we
learned from Epicor that prior to 8.0 there were SIGNIFICANT advantages
to being on Progress. With the new Progress OpenEdge 10.0 development
environment that is the foundation for the 8.0 Vantage product, it's my
understanding that the gap has been substantially narrowed and that a
"native" Progress installation will only have a 3 to 4% performance edge
over a SQL-based installation. The message I got from very seasoned
Epicor sources was "Go with what you've got -- If you're already
supporting a SQL Server and know how to administer it, you're better off
sticking with it"

I gave Epicor every opportunity to tell me to use Progress and they
stuck to the "Go with what you know" line. We're not yet in production
and I have no historical basis for comparison, but the development and
test environments we're running are certainly not DB-bound from what I
can tell."

Regards,

John Sykes
Director, IT
Kaleidescape, Inc.
650.625.6161 O
209.795.4588 M
650.625.6101 F
mailto:john.sykes@...
www.kaleidescape.com




-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Comeau, Steven
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:09 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] SQL Server with Vantage 8

I was told that Vantage for MSSQL has Progress installed also and that
SQL sits on top of Progress. When we went with V8, I stayed with
Progress, but now have a dedicated DBA, I think I would have liked the
SQL version in that there are more DBAs available with SQL experience
than with Progress.



Steven Comeau
Manager of Corporate IT Systems
Main Tape
1 Capital Drive, Suite 101
Cranbury, NJ 08512
1-800-526-8273 x332

_____

From: kpotratz_05 [mailto:kpotratz_05@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 12:01 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] SQL Server with Vantage 8



I am wondering if anyone can clear something up for me. I have noticed
posts regarding some companies who are running Vantage 8 with SQL
server. This is something I was interested in doing, as I was
previously a SQL admin. However, at purchase time I was told I should
stay away from SQL, because Vantage would not soley run on SQL.
Basically, I was told that I would have to configure Vantage on
Progress, and there would be a connector between the Progress database
and the SQL databases. The data would then copy from Progress to SQL.
They told me that unless I had a copy of SQL just sitting around that I
could use for this, it would be a waste of money because it truely
would not be running off of SQL. Can anyone clear this up for me? Is
anyone running Vantage 8.0 only on SQL, no Progress involved in their
configuration? Thanks in advance!





Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .



_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
Its my understanding that as of 8.0 MS SQL should be pretty much on a level
pegging with Progress.

Part of the problem is that most of the Epicor guys are more familiar with
progress and so they naturally recommend what they know more about.

I for one much prefer MS SQL.

Vantage 8 will still use the OpenEdge (Progress) smart client so there is
still a progress piece there, but everything else is SQL - I know that they
have been working closely with Microsoft to make Vantage run just as fast on
MS SQL as progress.

Gavin


On 11/3/05, John Sykes <john.sykes@...> wrote:
>
> Here's my understanding re: Vantage 8, Progress and MS SQL. It's based
> on my direct experience, discussions with Epicor Support/Product
> Management and info gleaned from others on/in this forum.
>
> Even in a "SQL" Installation, there ARE some Progress Databases that
> maintain the metadata about the table layouts, columns, etc. that hold
> the Vantage data in the SQL databases. The Progress databases are
> completely expendable in a disaster situation -- i.e. all of YOUR
> critical data IS stored in the SQL Server tables/databases (but under
> the hood, Vantage relies some small Progress databases to direct Vantage
> data to the appropriate/underlying SQL tables....)
>
> Again, even in a "pure" SQL environment, you will have Progress DB bits,
> in addition to the entire Progress Open Edge environment. This is
> actually a good thing if you buy into the whole Vantage vision of smart
> clients, SOA, etc. The inconsequential (but required...) Progress
> databases simply hold meta-information that direct the Vantage services
> to the appropriate SQL tables to hold "your" data.
>
> What this means in a disaster recovery situation is, is that as long as
> your SQL tables/databases are backed up and you have a great plan to
> recover them, you should be "OK" it sh!# happens. Yeah it's a pain in
> the @$$ to restore the OE/Vantage environment, but you will not be
> totally screwed and you could recover in a couple of hours even if you
> had to bring everything up from bare metal with only the original OS and
> Application media (and no backups of the OE/Vantage server -- document,
> document, document!) Again, you'd be COMPLETELY SOL if you didn't have
> good/clean backups of the SQL databases (because that's where ALL of
> YOUR data is stored...)
>
> There's a "bug" in the OE/Vantage installer -- It requires that you have
> a LOCAL copy of SQL Server installed in order to initially install V8.
> This was an inconvenience for us as we have a dedicated, separate SQL
> Server. To get the initial installation, we had to install a copy of SQL
> Server on our V8 Application Server. Once installed, however, it was a
> slam-dunk to move the database using the DTS import/export tool. What's
> really very cool, too, is that the V8 server simply needs an ODBC
> connection to "talk" to the right SQL database -- the net effect being,
> that once I had the installed database moved to our dedicated SQL
> Server, it was simply a matter of updating the ODBC item on the V8 App
> Server to direct it to our SQL Server (by the way, we use a dedicated
> GB-GB link between our SQL and V8 App Servers....).
>
> Confessions/Notes: I've "inadvertantly" tested this -- long story -- My
> first Vantage patch application <-- Argh! -- it functions as above.
> Yeah, I was surprised by the Progress bits at first, but I'm okay with
> it now --> I wanted a "pure" environment, but it seems to "just work"
> and I have no complaints.
>
> Lastly, (sounding like a broken record here...), this is our assessment
> of the whole SQL vs. Progress thing:
>
> "I posted this in early September. While we're not in a position to do a
> direct comparison (i.e. we don't have 8.0 on a Progress-only
> environment, too...), there seems to be no current downside to being on
> SQL. It just works and, in our case, I don't feel like we are a second
> class citizen since we're running on/under SQL Server. By the way, when
> SQL Server 2005 is certified, things are likely to get even better in
> terms of being able to manage/optimize the system. There was an
> effective presentation at Perspectives this year making that point. My
> opinion of our SQL-based implementation has not changed in the nearly 60
> days since the following was originally posted:
>
> We're a new Vantage 8.0.802b customer and are using SQL Server 2000. We
> did a ton of due diligence on the database selection issue and we
> learned from Epicor that prior to 8.0 there were SIGNIFICANT advantages
> to being on Progress. With the new Progress OpenEdge 10.0 development
> environment that is the foundation for the 8.0 Vantage product, it's my
> understanding that the gap has been substantially narrowed and that a
> "native" Progress installation will only have a 3 to 4% performance edge
> over a SQL-based installation. The message I got from very seasoned
> Epicor sources was "Go with what you've got -- If you're already
> supporting a SQL Server and know how to administer it, you're better off
> sticking with it"
>
> I gave Epicor every opportunity to tell me to use Progress and they
> stuck to the "Go with what you know" line. We're not yet in production
> and I have no historical basis for comparison, but the development and
> test environments we're running are certainly not DB-bound from what I
> can tell."
>
> Regards,
>
> John Sykes
> Director, IT
> Kaleidescape, Inc.
> 650.625.6161 O
> 209.795.4588 M
> 650.625.6101 F
> mailto:john.sykes@...
> www.kaleidescape.com <http://www.kaleidescape.com>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Comeau, Steven
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:09 AM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] SQL Server with Vantage 8
>
> I was told that Vantage for MSSQL has Progress installed also and that
> SQL sits on top of Progress. When we went with V8, I stayed with
> Progress, but now have a dedicated DBA, I think I would have liked the
> SQL version in that there are more DBAs available with SQL experience
> than with Progress.
>
>
>
> Steven Comeau
> Manager of Corporate IT Systems
> Main Tape
> 1 Capital Drive, Suite 101
> Cranbury, NJ 08512
> 1-800-526-8273 x332
>
> _____
>
> From: kpotratz_05 [mailto:kpotratz_05@...]
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 12:01 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Vantage] SQL Server with Vantage 8
>
>
>
> I am wondering if anyone can clear something up for me. I have noticed
> posts regarding some companies who are running Vantage 8 with SQL
> server. This is something I was interested in doing, as I was
> previously a SQL admin. However, at purchase time I was told I should
> stay away from SQL, because Vantage would not soley run on SQL.
> Basically, I was told that I would have to configure Vantage on
> Progress, and there would be a connector between the Progress database
> and the SQL databases. The data would then copy from Progress to SQL.
> They told me that unless I had a copy of SQL just sitting around that I
> could use for this, it would be a waste of money because it truely
> would not be running off of SQL. Can anyone clear this up for me? Is
> anyone running Vantage 8.0 only on SQL, no Progress involved in their
> configuration? Thanks in advance!
>
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
> and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> * Visit your group "vantage
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
> and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
> already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
> Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Gavin Davidson
Manufacturing Systems Corp


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OK, I have been corrected.

The SmartClient is 100% C#.

All the progress db has is a schema holder for the code, absolutely no data.
All the data is in SQL Server and speed should be comparable to Progress.

Gavin

the progress db has is a schema holder for the code, absolutely no data..
All the data is in SQL Server, nothing is the progress db.

On 11/3/05, Gavin Davidson <gavinjd68@...> wrote:
>
> Its my understanding that as of 8.0 MS SQL should be pretty much on a
> level pegging with Progress.
>
> Part of the problem is that most of the Epicor guys are more familiar with
> progress and so they naturally recommend what they know more about.
>
> I for one much prefer MS SQL.
>
> Vantage 8 will still use the OpenEdge (Progress) smart client so there is
> still a progress piece there, but everything else is SQL - I know that they
> have been working closely with Microsoft to make Vantage run just as fast on
> MS SQL as progress.
>
> Gavin
>
>
> On 11/3/05, John Sykes <john.sykes@...> wrote:
> >
> > Here's my understanding re: Vantage 8, Progress and MS SQL. It's based
> > on my direct experience, discussions with Epicor Support/Product
> > Management and info gleaned from others on/in this forum.
> >
> > Even in a "SQL" Installation, there ARE some Progress Databases that
> > maintain the metadata about the table layouts, columns, etc. that hold
> > the Vantage data in the SQL databases. The Progress databases are
> > completely expendable in a disaster situation -- i.e. all of YOUR
> > critical data IS stored in the SQL Server tables/databases (but under
> > the hood, Vantage relies some small Progress databases to direct Vantage
> > data to the appropriate/underlying SQL tables....)
> >
> > Again, even in a "pure" SQL environment, you will have Progress DB bits,
> > in addition to the entire Progress Open Edge environment. This is
> > actually a good thing if you buy into the whole Vantage vision of smart
> > clients, SOA, etc. The inconsequential (but required...) Progress
> > databases simply hold meta-information that direct the Vantage services
> > to the appropriate SQL tables to hold "your" data.
> >
> > What this means in a disaster recovery situation is, is that as long as
> > your SQL tables/databases are backed up and you have a great plan to
> > recover them, you should be "OK" it sh!# happens. Yeah it's a pain in
> > the @$$ to restore the OE/Vantage environment, but you will not be
> > totally screwed and you could recover in a couple of hours even if you
> > had to bring everything up from bare metal with only the original OS and
> > Application media (and no backups of the OE/Vantage server -- document,
> > document, document!) Again, you'd be COMPLETELY SOL if you didn't have
> > good/clean backups of the SQL databases (because that's where ALL of
> > YOUR data is stored...)
> >
> > There's a "bug" in the OE/Vantage installer -- It requires that you have
> > a LOCAL copy of SQL Server installed in order to initially install V8.
> > This was an inconvenience for us as we have a dedicated, separate SQL
> > Server. To get the initial installation, we had to install a copy of SQL
> > Server on our V8 Application Server. Once installed, however, it was a
> > slam-dunk to move the database using the DTS import/export tool. What's
> > really very cool, too, is that the V8 server simply needs an ODBC
> > connection to "talk" to the right SQL database -- the net effect being,
> > that once I had the installed database moved to our dedicated SQL
> > Server, it was simply a matter of updating the ODBC item on the V8 App
> > Server to direct it to our SQL Server (by the way, we use a dedicated
> > GB-GB link between our SQL and V8 App Servers....).
> >
> > Confessions/Notes: I've "inadvertantly" tested this -- long story -- My
> > first Vantage patch application <-- Argh! -- it functions as above.
> > Yeah, I was surprised by the Progress bits at first, but I'm okay with
> > it now --> I wanted a "pure" environment, but it seems to "just work"
> > and I have no complaints.
> >
> > Lastly, (sounding like a broken record here...), this is our assessment
> > of the whole SQL vs. Progress thing:
> >
> > "I posted this in early September. While we're not in a position to do a
> >
> > direct comparison (i.e. we don't have 8.0 on a Progress-only
> > environment, too...), there seems to be no current downside to being on
> > SQL. It just works and, in our case, I don't feel like we are a second
> > class citizen since we're running on/under SQL Server. By the way, when
> > SQL Server 2005 is certified, things are likely to get even better in
> > terms of being able to manage/optimize the system. There was an
> > effective presentation at Perspectives this year making that point. My
> > opinion of our SQL-based implementation has not changed in the nearly 60
> >
> > days since the following was originally posted:
> >
> > We're a new Vantage 8.0.802b customer and are using SQL Server 2000. We
> > did a ton of due diligence on the database selection issue and we
> > learned from Epicor that prior to 8.0 there were SIGNIFICANT advantages
> > to being on Progress. With the new Progress OpenEdge 10.0 development
> > environment that is the foundation for the 8.0 Vantage product, it's my
> > understanding that the gap has been substantially narrowed and that a
> > "native" Progress installation will only have a 3 to 4% performance edge
> > over a SQL-based installation. The message I got from very seasoned
> > Epicor sources was "Go with what you've got -- If you're already
> > supporting a SQL Server and know how to administer it, you're better off
> > sticking with it"
> >
> > I gave Epicor every opportunity to tell me to use Progress and they
> > stuck to the "Go with what you know" line. We're not yet in production
> > and I have no historical basis for comparison, but the development and
> > test environments we're running are certainly not DB-bound from what I
> > can tell."
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > John Sykes
> > Director, IT
> > Kaleidescape, Inc.
> > 650.625.6161 O
> > 209.795.4588 M
> > 650.625.6101 F
> > mailto:john.sykes@...
> > www.kaleidescape.com <http://www.kaleidescape.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> > Of Comeau, Steven
> > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:09 AM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [Vantage] SQL Server with Vantage 8
> >
> > I was told that Vantage for MSSQL has Progress installed also and that
> > SQL sits on top of Progress. When we went with V8, I stayed with
> > Progress, but now have a dedicated DBA, I think I would have liked the
> > SQL version in that there are more DBAs available with SQL experience
> > than with Progress.
> >
> >
> >
> > Steven Comeau
> > Manager of Corporate IT Systems
> > Main Tape
> > 1 Capital Drive, Suite 101
> > Cranbury, NJ 08512
> > 1-800-526-8273 x332
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: kpotratz_05 [mailto: kpotratz_05@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 12:01 PM
> > To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Vantage] SQL Server with Vantage 8
> >
> >
> >
> > I am wondering if anyone can clear something up for me. I have noticed
> > posts regarding some companies who are running Vantage 8 with SQL
> > server. This is something I was interested in doing, as I was
> > previously a SQL admin. However, at purchase time I was told I should
> > stay away from SQL, because Vantage would not soley run on SQL.
> > Basically, I was told that I would have to configure Vantage on
> > Progress, and there would be a connector between the Progress database
> > and the SQL databases. The data would then copy from Progress to SQL.
> > They told me that unless I had a copy of SQL just sitting around that I
> > could use for this, it would be a waste of money because it truely
> > would not be running off of SQL. Can anyone clear this up for me? Is
> > anyone running Vantage 8.0 only on SQL, no Progress involved in their
> > configuration? Thanks in advance!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> > have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> > (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
> > and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
> > (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> > (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> >
> > * Visit your group "vantage
> > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> > have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> > (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
> > and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> > (2) To search through old msg's goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> > (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
> > have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
> > (1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
> > and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
> > (2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
> >
> > (3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Gavin Davidson
> Manufacturing Systems Corp




--
Gavin Davidson
Manufacturing Systems Corp


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We started using SQL Server 2000 with Vantage 6.0 and are currently trying
to get V8 live on it.

We chose SQL Server for a few reasons:
We already owned it and were running it.
It is relatively easy to find SQL support
It was not that we knew anything wrong with Progress - we just
didn't know anything about it
It will be easier to integrate other systems with Vantage using SQL
(in our opinion)

As for the OpenEdge/Progress/SQL dependencies I would point you to the
Progress web site where you can down load a document called
"OpenEdge Data Management: DataServer for Microsoft SQL Server"

My understanding of the whole thing is that the Vantage Progress code is
written to think it only sees a Progress database. Enough Progress database
is installed to accept the code and to hold the database schemas. From
there OpenEdge picks up and communicates with SQL Server using the schemas
in Progress. I'm sure that's an over simplification but its all I can get
my mind around.

We have a few V8 SCR's in development where we have experienced some data
not being displayed from SQL but have not seen anything that creates bad
data.

We've been told there are three live Vantage 8 sites on SQL but no one seems
to know who they are - we'd love to hear from you if you are any of the
alleged three.

Just learned about this group at Perspectives and it has been a breath of
fresh air - my thanks to all the responders.

David J. Murphy
Information Systems Manager
A&A Machine & Fabrication, LLC
Elevating the Art of precision machining
and fabrication from concept to completion
Voice (409) 938-4274
Fax (409) 938-3925
www.aagroup.com