Vantage 5.0 Sql?

My experience with other packages that have gone from anything to SQL is
that the salesman always says it is slower and that there is little or no
advantage and this is usually not the case. I think the problem is that
they know very little about the SQL product until it has been out in the
field awhile and get feed back from people who have made the change. I
prefer SQL to almost any other product because it gives me more flexibility
with integration to external tools, especially Crystal.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Lipham [mailto:paull@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 8:42 AM
To: 'vantage@egroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage 5.0 Sql???


We talked to an Epicor rep about this situation and he stated that the SQL
server was a tad slower than the Progress solution and took much more time
and expertice to Manage. He seemed to think Epicor was just offering this
to open some doors to people who were already using SQL and not willing to
change. He also told us that Progress was here to stay and we should not
worry about changing.

FYI
Paul L.

My boss wanted me to find out how many users will change over to SQL
when you convert to 5.0? Any advantages?

Thanks,
Dina
Vamco International, Inc.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go to
www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My Groups,
choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the link above
will work the next time you try it.)
My boss wanted me to find out how many users will change over to SQL
when you convert to 5.0? Any advantages?

Thanks,
Dina
Vamco International, Inc.
We talked to an Epicor rep about this situation and he stated that the SQL server was a tad slower than the Progress solution and took much more time and expertice to Manage. He seemed to think Epicor was just offering this to open some doors to people who were already using SQL and not willing to change. He also told us that Progress was here to stay and we should not worry about changing.

FYI
Paul L.

My boss wanted me to find out how many users will change over to SQL
when you convert to 5.0? Any advantages?

Thanks,
Dina
Vamco International, Inc.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There are several advantages to a SQL based solution, however, not this one.


One of the reasons I would like to use a SQL solution would be for better
integration with Microsoft. Imagine, no more going through ODBC to use
crystal, access and excel. That alone would save me a lot of
trouble-shooting time and much aggravation!

However, from what I learned at our last users group meeting, epicor's SQL
solution basically just 'sits' on top of the existing progress database.
Therefore, it will be slower. I have not experienced it first hand. I
would love to hear from anyone who has, or anyone who is using it...

Sarah
Our firm has experience in both SQL and Progress. I can assure you that
Progress is much faster than SQL at this point. My feeling is that Epicor
was forced to offer the SQL solution due to competitor's sales efforts. I
therefore understand why they come up with this offering. I also agree with
the cement that SQL is harder to administer. Try hard booting a server that
has SQL on it and see what it does to databases (DON'T REALLY TRY THIS AT
HOME BECAUSE YOU WILL HAVE PROBLEMS), etc as opposed to Progress. Progress
is very forgiving and most users never have to due any tuning or large admin
tasks.


Keith E. Taylor
Vice President
LBSi
Business Systems Consultants (Progress based ERP packages)
216/476-1416 ext 26
keith@...
To All
I found out from Epicore that there is NO upgrade path from Progress
to SQL at this time, unless you send your data to Epicor for conversion
(which is IMPOSSIBLE for us). The only option is to have Epicor come
down and convert the Progress data on site, which would cost $5000 plus
(unknown amount of time).

Britt Moelling
M&M Manufacturing Co.


Dina Hieber wrote:

> My boss wanted me to find out how many users will change over to SQL
> when you convert to 5.0? Any advantages?
>
> Thanks,
> Dina
> Vamco International, Inc.
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Corbis - The Place for Pictures Online]
>
> We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report
> Files, please go to the following link:
> http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
> (Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it,
> go to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose
> My Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the
> password, the link above will work the next time you try it.)

--
Britt Moelling
M&M Manufacturing Co., Inc.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From everything that I've seen of the SQL Server support, I wouldn't recommend anyone changing at this time. I know this will surprise most of you, but the support for SQL Server that Epicor has added is, to put it plainly, not very well thought out.

First off they use the Progress Data Server product (basically a middleman) to pump the info to SQL Server while using the existing Progress code to run Vantage. I see this as a quick way to get the product to market, but not the best move for the existing user base. It also adds (IMHO) unneeded overhead to the process. This particular method won't take advantage of everything that SQL Server has to offer.

Secondly, the SQL Server database doesn't have any indexing and the way it is setup and implemented just doesn't make sense. This really hampers performance. SQL Server is a very fast database server (I would agree with earlier postings that the Progress database is faster), but not having any indexing is beyond my comprehension. Security is implemented just as good with SQL Server as it with the Progress databases (basically wide open).

Finally, the upgrade path to SQL Server is just plain dumb. How many businesses of any substance can afford the time required to have the database down to switch it over? Not to mention the cost of having on on-site visit to minimize the time needed.

The return on investment just isn't there yet. I don't see any reason why anyone would upgrade to the SQL Server portion of Vantage. It would be nice if the marketing boys would find something else to dedicate their attention to, instead of quick solutions that don't really solve any problems. I wish there was a drug to cure the "featureitus" that they have. Just having a feature doesn't necessarily make the product better.

That's my two cents worth.

Ted Kitch
ted@...
----- Original Message -----
From: Britt Moelling
To: vantage@egroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Vantage 5.0 Sql???


To All
I found out from Epicore that there is NO upgrade path from Progress
to SQL at this time, unless you send your data to Epicor for conversion
(which is IMPOSSIBLE for us). The only option is to have Epicor come
down and convert the Progress data on site, which would cost $5000 plus
(unknown amount of time).

Britt Moelling
M&M Manufacturing Co.


Dina Hieber wrote:

> My boss wanted me to find out how many users will change over to SQL
> when you convert to 5.0? Any advantages?
>
> Thanks,
> Dina
> Vamco International, Inc.
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Corbis - The Place for Pictures Online]
>
> We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report
> Files, please go to the following link:
> http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
> (Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it,
> go to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose
> My Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the
> password, the link above will work the next time you try it.)

--
Britt Moelling
M&M Manufacturing Co., Inc.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


eGroups Sponsor


We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files, please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the link above will work the next time you try it.)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The decision to move to the SQL database is based on your business and IT
needs. Epicor is neither encouraging nor discouraging moving to a SQL
database. The SQL database is not required for integration with any other
Epicor common products. Anytime you convert from one database to another,
it will require conversion of data and some down time.

I have made other comments below in hopes to shed some light on this topic.
I am in meetings for the balance of the day but would be happy to reply to
other concerns with SQL at a later time.

Mark Pladson
Product Manager
eManufacturing Powered by Vantage
Epicor Software Corporation
www.epicor.com
Phone # 952-417-5187
Fax # 952-582-5478
email address MPladson@...



-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Kitch [mailto:ted@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 10:54 AM
To: vantage@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Vantage 5.0 Sql???


From everything that I've seen of the SQL Server support, I wouldn't
recommend anyone changing at this time. I know this will surprise most of
you, but the support for SQL Server that Epicor has added is, to put it
plainly, not very well thought out.

First off they use the Progress Data Server product (basically a middleman)
to pump the info to SQL Server while using the existing Progress code to run
Vantage. I see this as a quick way to get the product to market, but not
the best move for the existing user base. It also adds (IMHO) unneeded
overhead to the process. This particular method won't take advantage of
everything that SQL Server has to offer.

eManufacturing - The use of the Progress Data Server allows us to use a
common set of source code for Progress, SQL and perhaps other databases in
the future. The Progress Data Server does add some overhead but the effect
on performance are minimal based our testing at Microsoft this fall.

Secondly, the SQL Server database doesn't have any indexing and the way it
is setup and implemented just doesn't make sense. This really hampers
performance. SQL Server is a very fast database server (I would agree with
earlier postings that the Progress database is faster), but not having any
indexing is beyond my comprehension. Security is implemented just as good
with SQL Server as it with the Progress databases (basically wide open).

eManufacturing - The SQL database and Progress database are essentially
identical and have the same indexing on every table. There are some
differences in data types because Progress and SQL do not share the same
data type definitions.

Finally, the upgrade path to SQL Server is just plain dumb. How many
businesses of any substance can afford the time required to have the
database down to switch it over? Not to mention the cost of having on
on-site visit to minimize the time needed.

eManufacturing - During the conversion process all the data from your
Progress database is dumped using Progress Data Administration tools. The
data is written into the SQL database using Epicor's conversion program.
Depending on the size of your database this process can take a considerable
amount of time even with a powerful multi-processor server. The presence of
a skilled Epicor IT professional is required because it is important for you
that this process goes smoothly.

The return on investment just isn't there yet. I don't see any reason why
anyone would upgrade to the SQL Server portion of Vantage. It would be nice
if the marketing boys would find something else to dedicate their attention
to, instead of quick solutions that don't really solve any problems. I wish
there was a drug to cure the "featureitus" that they have. Just having a
feature doesn't necessarily make the product better.

That's my two cents worth.

Ted Kitch
ted@...
----- Original Message -----
From: Britt Moelling
To: vantage@egroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Vantage 5.0 Sql???


To All
I found out from Epicore that there is NO upgrade path from Progress
to SQL at this time, unless you send your data to Epicor for conversion
(which is IMPOSSIBLE for us). The only option is to have Epicor come
down and convert the Progress data on site, which would cost $5000 plus
(unknown amount of time).

Britt Moelling
M&M Manufacturing Co.


Dina Hieber wrote:

> My boss wanted me to find out how many users will change over to SQL
> when you convert to 5.0? Any advantages?
>
> Thanks,
> Dina
> Vamco International, Inc.
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Corbis - The Place for Pictures Online]
>
> We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report
> Files, please go to the following link:
> http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
> (Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it,
> go to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose
> My Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the
> password, the link above will work the next time you try it.)

--
Britt Moelling
M&M Manufacturing Co., Inc.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


eGroups Sponsor


We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go
to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My
Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the
link above will work the next time you try it.)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go to
www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My Groups,
choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the link above
will work the next time you try it.)
Mark,
First of all, let me say THANK YOU VERY MUCH for responding to users'
concerns about the product. This is a very welcome change from Epicor's
lack of response in the past!

I have heard a rumor that the SQL database does not have any triggers, but
depends on the Progress triggers to handle data requests from eMan
(Vantage). Here's a scenario that concerns me: say I'm running eMan with
the SQL database and I let users connect to the database via Microsoft
Access so that they can slice and dice the data any way they want (my users
would LOVE this). But a well-intentioned user wants to get rid of some part
number from his result set and deletes the record rather than change the
query. Oops, he just deleted a Part record and now my data integrity is
down the tubes because I still have all the PartTran records (etc., etc.)
still in the database.

Obviously this is just the tip of the data-integrity iceberg, so this is a
huge concern for me. Can you shed any light on how realistic this situation
could be?

And thanks again for answering our concerns!
================
Steve Sanders
Delta Centrifugal Corp.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Pladson [mailto:mpladson@...]
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 8:27 AM
To: vantage@egroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage 5.0 Sql???


The decision to move to the SQL database is based on your business and IT
needs. Epicor is neither encouraging nor discouraging moving to a SQL
database. The SQL database is not required for integration with any other
Epicor common products. Anytime you convert from one database to another,
it will require conversion of data and some down time.

I have made other comments below in hopes to shed some light on this
topic.
I am in meetings for the balance of the day but would be happy to reply to
other concerns with SQL at a later time.

Mark Pladson
Product Manager
eManufacturing Powered by Vantage
Epicor Software Corporation
www.epicor.com
Phone # 952-417-5187
Fax # 952-582-5478
email address MPladson@...



-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Kitch [mailto:ted@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 10:54 AM
To: vantage@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Vantage 5.0 Sql???


From everything that I've seen of the SQL Server support, I wouldn't
recommend anyone changing at this time. I know this will surprise most of
you, but the support for SQL Server that Epicor has added is, to put it
plainly, not very well thought out.

First off they use the Progress Data Server product (basically a
middleman)
to pump the info to SQL Server while using the existing Progress code to
run
Vantage. I see this as a quick way to get the product to market, but not
the best move for the existing user base. It also adds (IMHO) unneeded
overhead to the process. This particular method won't take advantage of
everything that SQL Server has to offer.

eManufacturing - The use of the Progress Data Server allows us to use a
common set of source code for Progress, SQL and perhaps other databases in
the future. The Progress Data Server does add some overhead but the
effect
on performance are minimal based our testing at Microsoft this fall.

Secondly, the SQL Server database doesn't have any indexing and the way it
is setup and implemented just doesn't make sense. This really hampers
performance. SQL Server is a very fast database server (I would agree
with
earlier postings that the Progress database is faster), but not having any
indexing is beyond my comprehension. Security is implemented just as good
with SQL Server as it with the Progress databases (basically wide open).

eManufacturing - The SQL database and Progress database are essentially
identical and have the same indexing on every table. There are some
differences in data types because Progress and SQL do not share the same
data type definitions.

Finally, the upgrade path to SQL Server is just plain dumb. How many
businesses of any substance can afford the time required to have the
database down to switch it over? Not to mention the cost of having on
on-site visit to minimize the time needed.

eManufacturing - During the conversion process all the data from your
Progress database is dumped using Progress Data Administration tools. The
data is written into the SQL database using Epicor's conversion program.
Depending on the size of your database this process can take a
considerable
amount of time even with a powerful multi-processor server. The presence
of
a skilled Epicor IT professional is required because it is important for
you
that this process goes smoothly.

The return on investment just isn't there yet. I don't see any reason why
anyone would upgrade to the SQL Server portion of Vantage. It would be
nice
if the marketing boys would find something else to dedicate their
attention
to, instead of quick solutions that don't really solve any problems. I
wish
there was a drug to cure the "featureitus" that they have. Just having a
feature doesn't necessarily make the product better.

That's my two cents worth.

Ted Kitch
ted@...
----- Original Message -----
From: Britt Moelling
To: vantage@egroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Vantage 5.0 Sql???


To All
I found out from Epicore that there is NO upgrade path from Progress
to SQL at this time, unless you send your data to Epicor for conversion
(which is IMPOSSIBLE for us). The only option is to have Epicor come
down and convert the Progress data on site, which would cost $5000 plus
(unknown amount of time).

Britt Moelling
M&M Manufacturing Co.


Dina Hieber wrote:

> My boss wanted me to find out how many users will change over to SQL
> when you convert to 5.0? Any advantages?
>
> Thanks,
> Dina
> Vamco International, Inc.
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Corbis - The Place for Pictures Online]
>
> We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report
> Files, please go to the following link:
> http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
> (Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it,
> go to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose
> My Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the
> password, the link above will work the next time you try it.)

--
Britt Moelling
M&M Manufacturing Co., Inc.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


eGroups Sponsor


We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go
to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My
Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the
link above will work the next time you try it.)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go
to
www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My
Groups,
choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the link
above
will work the next time you try it.)

eGroups Sponsor


We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go
to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My
Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the
link above will work the next time you try it.)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hey Mark, thanks for letting us know you are listening.

I do have some additional input regarding this. When I went in and looked at the database I didn't see any indexes. I believe that the indexing is implied from the Data Server and not from the SQL database itself. If I look at the SQL database through Progress' eyes then I do see the indexing, but when I view it straight from SQL I don't. In fact I don't see the triggers either. I may be missing something here, so let me know if I am.

I'm not trying to start a rant with this, but I really don't see any significant ROI on switching to SQL Server. I'm sure there are business customers out there that have to have this regardless of ROI, but, in my opinion, most of the customer base would switch to SQL Server just to get an easier connection to the data. (instead of using ODBC)

The cost issue of converting the data over doesn't help add much to the product. Especially, when most users will want to upgrade to SQL Server for better connectivity.

Additionally, I really appreciate your input. Please keep it up. It is invaluable hearing from someone technical from within Epicor, plus we like to see a head pop out of the ivory tower once and a while.

Ted Kitch
ted@...
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Pladson
To: 'vantage@egroups.com'
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 8:26 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage 5.0 Sql???


The decision to move to the SQL database is based on your business and IT
needs. Epicor is neither encouraging nor discouraging moving to a SQL
database. The SQL database is not required for integration with any other
Epicor common products. Anytime you convert from one database to another,
it will require conversion of data and some down time.

I have made other comments below in hopes to shed some light on this topic.
I am in meetings for the balance of the day but would be happy to reply to
other concerns with SQL at a later time.

Mark Pladson
Product Manager
eManufacturing Powered by Vantage
Epicor Software Corporation
www.epicor.com
Phone # 952-417-5187
Fax # 952-582-5478
email address MPladson@...



-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Kitch [mailto:ted@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 10:54 AM
To: vantage@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Vantage 5.0 Sql???


>From everything that I've seen of the SQL Server support, I wouldn't
recommend anyone changing at this time. I know this will surprise most of
you, but the support for SQL Server that Epicor has added is, to put it
plainly, not very well thought out.

First off they use the Progress Data Server product (basically a middleman)
to pump the info to SQL Server while using the existing Progress code to run
Vantage. I see this as a quick way to get the product to market, but not
the best move for the existing user base. It also adds (IMHO) unneeded
overhead to the process. This particular method won't take advantage of
everything that SQL Server has to offer.

eManufacturing - The use of the Progress Data Server allows us to use a
common set of source code for Progress, SQL and perhaps other databases in
the future. The Progress Data Server does add some overhead but the effect
on performance are minimal based our testing at Microsoft this fall.

Secondly, the SQL Server database doesn't have any indexing and the way it
is setup and implemented just doesn't make sense. This really hampers
performance. SQL Server is a very fast database server (I would agree with
earlier postings that the Progress database is faster), but not having any
indexing is beyond my comprehension. Security is implemented just as good
with SQL Server as it with the Progress databases (basically wide open).

eManufacturing - The SQL database and Progress database are essentially
identical and have the same indexing on every table. There are some
differences in data types because Progress and SQL do not share the same
data type definitions.

Finally, the upgrade path to SQL Server is just plain dumb. How many
businesses of any substance can afford the time required to have the
database down to switch it over? Not to mention the cost of having on
on-site visit to minimize the time needed.

eManufacturing - During the conversion process all the data from your
Progress database is dumped using Progress Data Administration tools. The
data is written into the SQL database using Epicor's conversion program.
Depending on the size of your database this process can take a considerable
amount of time even with a powerful multi-processor server. The presence of
a skilled Epicor IT professional is required because it is important for you
that this process goes smoothly.

The return on investment just isn't there yet. I don't see any reason why
anyone would upgrade to the SQL Server portion of Vantage. It would be nice
if the marketing boys would find something else to dedicate their attention
to, instead of quick solutions that don't really solve any problems. I wish
there was a drug to cure the "featureitus" that they have. Just having a
feature doesn't necessarily make the product better.

That's my two cents worth.

Ted Kitch
ted@...
----- Original Message -----
From: Britt Moelling
To: vantage@egroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Vantage 5.0 Sql???


To All
I found out from Epicore that there is NO upgrade path from Progress
to SQL at this time, unless you send your data to Epicor for conversion
(which is IMPOSSIBLE for us). The only option is to have Epicor come
down and convert the Progress data on site, which would cost $5000 plus
(unknown amount of time).

Britt Moelling
M&M Manufacturing Co.


Dina Hieber wrote:

> My boss wanted me to find out how many users will change over to SQL
> when you convert to 5.0? Any advantages?
>
> Thanks,
> Dina
> Vamco International, Inc.
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Corbis - The Place for Pictures Online]
>
> We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report
> Files, please go to the following link:
> http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
> (Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it,
> go to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose
> My Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the
> password, the link above will work the next time you try it.)

--
Britt Moelling
M&M Manufacturing Co., Inc.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


eGroups Sponsor


We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go
to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My
Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the
link above will work the next time you try it.)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files,
please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go to
www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My Groups,
choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the link above
will work the next time you try it.)

eGroups Sponsor


We no longer allow attachments to files. To access/share Report Files, please go to the following link: http://www.egroups.com/files/vantage/
(Note: If this link does not work for you the first time you try it, go to www.egroups.com, login and be sure to save your password, choose My Groups, choose Vantage, then choose Files. If you save the password, the link above will work the next time you try it.)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]