I have taken this exact route and was extremely successful with a saw
operator (now Raw Materials manager) by putting internet access
available to him. With the particular individuals in this scenario, I
did the same.
The internet access worked, and was successful for him enjoying his
favorite pastime (soccer). I thought I had succeeded until... It came
time to purchase a PC for another user on the network, and he requested
I take his. "He didn't need it." That was four years ago. I came
close.
Bruce Butler
IT Manager
Knappe & Koester, Inc.
_____
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of pjw@...
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:41 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage Quoting
Mark, I couldn't agree more.
Patrick
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
Mark Dupuis
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:24 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage Quoting
Bruce, I've been there, but all hope is not gone.
Six years ago when I headed the change over from DCD Classic I setup
clients
for all the sales group. I had one old timer who flat out refused to
even
turn on his computer. When asked he responded "I've done this job for
30
years without a g@? d@^^ computer " I don't need one now. I was more
then
a little annoyed and took this as a personal challenge. I pondered for
a
few days and came to realize that this was not personal. Given all the
news
and horror stories about data corruption and data loss it must seem
scary to
someone who is a computer newbee. I figured he was simply afraid of
causing
damage. I gave him a pc with short cuts to a few games and challenged
him
to "break" the computer. He progressed from games to note pad to excel
in
about three weeks. I waited for him to ask me "What else can this
machine
do?" I soon found he was my best client. He was a clean slate willing
to
learn the right way of doing things. Last year he opened an Email virus
with no released def yet. (OK he didn't learn all the lessons) I took
him
off line for a couple of hours for a manual cleanup and he was lost.
"How
can I do my job without my computer" ;o)
I have found the ones who resist the hardest are the easiest to win over
if
you can understand their fears. It's the ones who think they already
know
it all that cause the system the most damage and me the most grief.
Mark
_____
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
Tim Mendoza
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 3:33 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage Quoting
I feel for your Bruce.
I somehow don't feel as bad now (sorry that is at your expense) :-)
I'll keep my fingers crossed for some early retirements?
Tim M
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Butler [SMTP:bbutler@...]
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 12:13 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage Quoting
Archaic could describe our system. We have some real old school
personnel
in key positions that operate without the needs of keyboards, monitors,
or
mice. They get info spoon fed through reports, and do quoting via
pencil,
paper, & file folders. I have waited a long time for the needs of
better
quoting practice to come from the elite. Almost everything else here is
automated, but the front end.
Engineers at this point, go to the folder, pick out penciled
instructions,
add their flavor, and create the BOM / MOM for planning to use. It is a
system with the end of days equal to the countdown to retirement for
some of
these elite (fairly soon). The only info that is trapped is the quoted
price, and quote / line.
Bruce Butler
IT Manager
Knappe & Koester, Inc.
_____
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
Tim Mendoza
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 3:03 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage Quoting
Any accurate quote should have a BOM and MOM. So if you are not entering
it
on the front end in Vantage, where are you keeping track of the BOM/MOM
info
in case you do win it?
In ANY estimating system, you have to have a BOM/MOM, so whether you put
it
in an external estimating program or in Vantage seems to be the same.
The
only thing I can definitely attest to, is that entering this information
in
Vantage's Quote Module IS cumbersome at best. Standard templates will
help
minimize this time. We have quoted thousands of part numbers in very
short
periods of time. We even purchased an external estimating program
(Costimator) with the intent of developing a download program. That has
not
happened and we now estimate in one program and use that information to
create the BOM/MOM in Vantage.
Tim M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Butler [SMTP:bbutler@...]
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 11:30 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Vantage Quoting
Todd,
We were discussing this exact topic this morning. We have not come to a
conclusion yet on whether or not the front loaded BOMs through the quote
module would be beneficial. We estimate about 5% of our quotes are
actually
turned into orders.
to
receive similar negative feedback you have. Too much time to enter,
etc..,
etc.., etc..
Right now, we are focusing on lost opportunities, and increasing our
success
rate of quotes.
Bruce Butler
IT Manager
Knappe & Koester, Inc.
_____
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
Todd Caughey
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 1:35 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Problems with rebellion
I have one case and it is not really a problem with Vantage it is
politics.
We have a quoting system written in Access that is extremely tightly
tailored to our "method" of generating quotes. All the details are
entered
on one screen in a grid. They click a cacluate buton and out pops the
pricing for various quantities. Entry is as fast as they can figure out
the
operations required to make a part (metal stampings).
When they ahve tried Vantage they whine about the need to enter
operations
on seperate screen and for extra "clicks". When I actually measures
this I
found the time developing the operations for a quote was 98% of the
process
and the actual entry was the other 2%. Of this 2% the Vantage version
added
about 15 seconds in extra clicking. But try to get them to switch so
everything can be in one system...NO WAY. Oh boy to they whine and
complain.
Problem is the departmental goals and measures are for shear volume of
quotes produced and as soon as we "force" the use of Vantage any failure
to
meet this will be pinned squarely on Vantage. A red herring the size of
a
grey whale. Never mind that we later spend extra hours re-keying the
BOM
into Vantage for the orders that are received. Or that we can't link
sales
$ to quote activity. Or that we can analyze customer purchase vs. quote
trends and ratios. It isn;t that Vantage is worse....it's that it would
be
an excuse.
Fortunately if we ever go to 8.0 I think I can custimze the screens
enough
to remove that last 15 seconds of "extra effort" when entering a quote.
So sometime rebellion is not in the system but in the external
influences.
-Todd C.
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of
Kevin Berry
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:02 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Problems with rebellion
Has anyone had problems with employees rebelling because of the Vantage
software. We have some people that like and some that love it.
Unfortuantely, the ones that dont like it are winning. Anyone else have
that type of problem?
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
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and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
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(2) To search through old msg's goto:
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Yahoo! Groups Links
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and
privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this
e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this
information by a person other than the intended recipient is
unauthorized and may be illegal.
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
SPONSORED LINKS
Manufacturing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database
+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA>
Membership database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ>
Database mortgage software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
acturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+s
oftware&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Data
base+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A>
Pda database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwa
re&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+
marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg>
Database management software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw>
Database marketing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
facturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+
software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Dat
abase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw>
_____
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Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
operator (now Raw Materials manager) by putting internet access
available to him. With the particular individuals in this scenario, I
did the same.
The internet access worked, and was successful for him enjoying his
favorite pastime (soccer). I thought I had succeeded until... It came
time to purchase a PC for another user on the network, and he requested
I take his. "He didn't need it." That was four years ago. I came
close.
Bruce Butler
IT Manager
Knappe & Koester, Inc.
_____
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of pjw@...
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:41 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage Quoting
Mark, I couldn't agree more.
Patrick
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
Mark Dupuis
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:24 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage Quoting
Bruce, I've been there, but all hope is not gone.
Six years ago when I headed the change over from DCD Classic I setup
clients
for all the sales group. I had one old timer who flat out refused to
even
turn on his computer. When asked he responded "I've done this job for
30
years without a g@? d@^^ computer " I don't need one now. I was more
then
a little annoyed and took this as a personal challenge. I pondered for
a
few days and came to realize that this was not personal. Given all the
news
and horror stories about data corruption and data loss it must seem
scary to
someone who is a computer newbee. I figured he was simply afraid of
causing
damage. I gave him a pc with short cuts to a few games and challenged
him
to "break" the computer. He progressed from games to note pad to excel
in
about three weeks. I waited for him to ask me "What else can this
machine
do?" I soon found he was my best client. He was a clean slate willing
to
learn the right way of doing things. Last year he opened an Email virus
with no released def yet. (OK he didn't learn all the lessons) I took
him
off line for a couple of hours for a manual cleanup and he was lost.
"How
can I do my job without my computer" ;o)
I have found the ones who resist the hardest are the easiest to win over
if
you can understand their fears. It's the ones who think they already
know
it all that cause the system the most damage and me the most grief.
Mark
_____
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
Tim Mendoza
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 3:33 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage Quoting
I feel for your Bruce.
I somehow don't feel as bad now (sorry that is at your expense) :-)
I'll keep my fingers crossed for some early retirements?
Tim M
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Butler [SMTP:bbutler@...]
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 12:13 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage Quoting
Archaic could describe our system. We have some real old school
personnel
in key positions that operate without the needs of keyboards, monitors,
or
mice. They get info spoon fed through reports, and do quoting via
pencil,
paper, & file folders. I have waited a long time for the needs of
better
quoting practice to come from the elite. Almost everything else here is
automated, but the front end.
Engineers at this point, go to the folder, pick out penciled
instructions,
add their flavor, and create the BOM / MOM for planning to use. It is a
system with the end of days equal to the countdown to retirement for
some of
these elite (fairly soon). The only info that is trapped is the quoted
price, and quote / line.
Bruce Butler
IT Manager
Knappe & Koester, Inc.
_____
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
Tim Mendoza
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 3:03 PM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage Quoting
Any accurate quote should have a BOM and MOM. So if you are not entering
it
on the front end in Vantage, where are you keeping track of the BOM/MOM
info
in case you do win it?
In ANY estimating system, you have to have a BOM/MOM, so whether you put
it
in an external estimating program or in Vantage seems to be the same.
The
only thing I can definitely attest to, is that entering this information
in
Vantage's Quote Module IS cumbersome at best. Standard templates will
help
minimize this time. We have quoted thousands of part numbers in very
short
periods of time. We even purchased an external estimating program
(Costimator) with the intent of developing a download program. That has
not
happened and we now estimate in one program and use that information to
create the BOM/MOM in Vantage.
Tim M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Butler [SMTP:bbutler@...]
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 11:30 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Vantage Quoting
Todd,
We were discussing this exact topic this morning. We have not come to a
conclusion yet on whether or not the front loaded BOMs through the quote
module would be beneficial. We estimate about 5% of our quotes are
actually
turned into orders.
>From an IT perspective, the amount of manual effort put into a quotewould not be wasted for a few minutes of entry. I have already started
to
receive similar negative feedback you have. Too much time to enter,
etc..,
etc.., etc..
Right now, we are focusing on lost opportunities, and increasing our
success
rate of quotes.
Bruce Butler
IT Manager
Knappe & Koester, Inc.
_____
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
Todd Caughey
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 1:35 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Problems with rebellion
I have one case and it is not really a problem with Vantage it is
politics.
We have a quoting system written in Access that is extremely tightly
tailored to our "method" of generating quotes. All the details are
entered
on one screen in a grid. They click a cacluate buton and out pops the
pricing for various quantities. Entry is as fast as they can figure out
the
operations required to make a part (metal stampings).
When they ahve tried Vantage they whine about the need to enter
operations
on seperate screen and for extra "clicks". When I actually measures
this I
found the time developing the operations for a quote was 98% of the
process
and the actual entry was the other 2%. Of this 2% the Vantage version
added
about 15 seconds in extra clicking. But try to get them to switch so
everything can be in one system...NO WAY. Oh boy to they whine and
complain.
Problem is the departmental goals and measures are for shear volume of
quotes produced and as soon as we "force" the use of Vantage any failure
to
meet this will be pinned squarely on Vantage. A red herring the size of
a
grey whale. Never mind that we later spend extra hours re-keying the
BOM
into Vantage for the orders that are received. Or that we can't link
sales
$ to quote activity. Or that we can analyze customer purchase vs. quote
trends and ratios. It isn;t that Vantage is worse....it's that it would
be
an excuse.
Fortunately if we ever go to 8.0 I think I can custimze the screens
enough
to remove that last 15 seconds of "extra effort" when entering a quote.
So sometime rebellion is not in the system but in the external
influences.
-Todd C.
-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of
Kevin Berry
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:02 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Problems with rebellion
Has anyone had problems with employees rebelling because of the Vantage
software. We have some people that like and some that love it.
Unfortuantely, the ones that dont like it are winning. Anyone else have
that type of problem?
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Get
to your groups with one click. Know instantly when new email arrives
http://us.click.yahoo.com/.7bhrC/MGxNAA/yQLSAA/PhFolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and
privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this
e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this
information by a person other than the intended recipient is
unauthorized and may be illegal.
Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
SPONSORED LINKS
Manufacturing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database
+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA>
Membership database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ>
Database mortgage software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
acturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+s
oftware&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Data
base+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A>
Pda database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwa
re&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+
marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg>
Database management software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw>
Database marketing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
facturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+
software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Dat
abase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw>
_____
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* Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]