A suggestion on list etiquette

[system]

Sorry to bring this back up again, but I'd like to add one more thing.

If you are replying, check the subject of your message and take out the spam
flag if there is one. That way those of us who have our email redirecting
potential spam messages won't lose a message. It also helps to keep all the
messages grouped by subject.

Thanks
Brian

[system]

I've noticed a couple of postings coming through with blank subject lines.
It's only one thread but if another starts, then there's no way to follow a
conversation and it'll be almost impossible to search for something in the
archive. If you could, please include a descriptive subject line.

This list is *very* tame when it comes to posting policies. By comparison, I
thought I would share a recent post from the list-admin of the Web Design
list. If not informative, I think you'll at least find it very entertaining.
;-)

Mark W.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As it appears that there are still people subscribing to this list who:

- didn't bother to read the list policies

/or/

- read them, but don't think that they need to follow them, because

o they're too important
o they're too busy
o they /really/ need the help, so anything goes
o I'm an ogre

I feel compelled to remind you that we're all in this together, that the
list policies are there to help ensure a respectful, informative, and
accessible experience for all, and they are to be ignored at your peril.

As this list community enters its tenth year, and remains stable at
around twenty two hundred members, I'm still surprised (revealing a lack
of imagination, or steadfast refusal to learn from past experience,
apparently) that there are still people who feel the need to explain to
me that what I think about this list doesn't matter, or that it's my
necessary role here to put up with their failures. Neither are true.

I'm also surprised at the sheer numbers of people who simply don't get
basic email etiquette - though with certain practices, such as top posts,
I can well see that the weight of badly designed mail clients, and time,
are against both me and tradition. But that does not excuse it, it merely
explains the forces we're up against.

So, I'll kindly reiterate a few basics, in the dim-witted dum spiro,
spero way I have, and with luck they will fall on fertile brains and
sprout there.

1) we're here to help each other and to communicate. The latter is a
necessary precondition for the former. Certain ways of communicating
have been given precedence over the years, from the early days of
email, because they are elegant, simple, accessible, and easily
learned. We use those practices here, because a cadre of early and
long-standing members of the list used them, and because they're a
good set of rules for communications. We shall continue. So should
you, if you want to benefit from your time here. Your formative
experiences with broken mail clients such as Lotus Notes, Microsoft
Mail, Outlook and various Web mail clients hold no weight against
existing Internet messaging etiquette; they merely explain your
ignorance of it where it exists.

2) we're not here out of any obligation to anyone else; the suggestion
that someone, anyone, here "must" help is an absurdity and a desperate
but ultimately unsuccessful way to get that help, and only shows a
fundamental misunderstanding of the "gift economy", to say nothing of
basic, but socialized, human nature.

3) I'm here because I feel an obligation to continue to take care of
this community, because on good days it's still useful to me, and
because on bad days I still feel that obligation as founder. Not
for a single reason more - not to help you solve your problems, not
to teach you how to use your mail client, not to explain tediously
and repetitiously the basics of email etiquette, though I may from
time to time anyway, because I do care, and that's how I believe the
world /ought/ to be.

4) I enjoy my status as otiose god here - your entreaties, your fury,
your beliefs, your tiny, clenched fists - none of this bothers me
enough to change my practices or the list policies; so wail away all
you want. If I've asked you to change your practices, and you have
not, and your mail is quarantined or discarded, and I don't know you
to have contributed to the value of the list, I don't care who you
are - you will suffer as long as you refuse to change. And I will
laugh at your pain in Alighierian delight, especially if you've
failed to heed my advice. Get over it.

Back to your regularly scheduled list traffic,
Steve

more info about webdesign-l: http://webdesign-L.com/
to unsubscribe: http://webdesign-L.com/mailman/listinfo/list
(updated!) list policies: http://webdesign-L.com/policies/
No "top posting", thanks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting

[system]

Mark
Yes you're correct Todd and I generally let the list "Be THE
List", as it were. I also belong to a number of other lists that are MUCH
stricter than this list. (For me it makes me less inclined to post, no one
wants to be publicly "corrected"). The format and the structure of the
list hasn't changed much, (well, not as many amusing threads, but as
moderator I felt that I should show some decorum) in 5 or 6 years. The tone
of the traffic is pretty much the same as it was 5 or 6 years ago. In
contrast to your comment, earlier this year Todd and I were accused of being
strutting, martinet, dictators because we/I enforced a rule about a certain
type of post.
Generally, when a post such as yours shows up I'll watch pretty
closely to see how the list responds and if there seems to be a general
consensus I'll try to act accordingly, (within the limits of my time, since
I do work for a living.) There have been a number of etiquette threads, (PUT
YOUR VERSION NUMBER IN THE SUBJECT LINE) some become practice others don't.
From a personal view point I'm loath to nitpick on minor issues.
Be that as it may, let's see if anyone else picks up this thread
and comments.

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:45 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

I've noticed a couple of postings coming through with blank subject lines.
It's only one thread but if another starts, then there's no way to follow a
conversation and it'll be almost impossible to search for something in the
archive. If you could, please include a descriptive subject line.

This list is *very* tame when it comes to posting policies. By comparison, I
thought I would share a recent post from the list-admin of the Web Design
list. If not informative, I think you'll at least find it very entertaining.
;-)

Mark W.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As it appears that there are still people subscribing to this list who:

- didn't bother to read the list policies

/or/

- read them, but don't think that they need to follow them, because

o they're too important
o they're too busy
o they /really/ need the help, so anything goes
o I'm an ogre

I feel compelled to remind you that we're all in this together, that the
list policies are there to help ensure a respectful, informative, and
accessible experience for all, and they are to be ignored at your peril.

As this list community enters its tenth year, and remains stable at
around twenty two hundred members, I'm still surprised (revealing a lack
of imagination, or steadfast refusal to learn from past experience,
apparently) that there are still people who feel the need to explain to
me that what I think about this list doesn't matter, or that it's my
necessary role here to put up with their failures. Neither are true.

I'm also surprised at the sheer numbers of people who simply don't get
basic email etiquette - though with certain practices, such as top posts,
I can well see that the weight of badly designed mail clients, and time,
are against both me and tradition. But that does not excuse it, it merely
explains the forces we're up against.

So, I'll kindly reiterate a few basics, in the dim-witted dum spiro,
spero way I have, and with luck they will fall on fertile brains and
sprout there.

1) we're here to help each other and to communicate. The latter is a
necessary precondition for the former. Certain ways of communicating
have been given precedence over the years, from the early days of
email, because they are elegant, simple, accessible, and easily
learned. We use those practices here, because a cadre of early and
long-standing members of the list used them, and because they're a
good set of rules for communications. We shall continue. So should
you, if you want to benefit from your time here. Your formative
experiences with broken mail clients such as Lotus Notes, Microsoft
Mail, Outlook and various Web mail clients hold no weight against
existing Internet messaging etiquette; they merely explain your
ignorance of it where it exists.

2) we're not here out of any obligation to anyone else; the suggestion
that someone, anyone, here "must" help is an absurdity and a desperate
but ultimately unsuccessful way to get that help, and only shows a
fundamental misunderstanding of the "gift economy", to say nothing of
basic, but socialized, human nature.

3) I'm here because I feel an obligation to continue to take care of
this community, because on good days it's still useful to me, and
because on bad days I still feel that obligation as founder. Not
for a single reason more - not to help you solve your problems, not
to teach you how to use your mail client, not to explain tediously
and repetitiously the basics of email etiquette, though I may from
time to time anyway, because I do care, and that's how I believe the
world /ought/ to be.

4) I enjoy my status as otiose god here - your entreaties, your fury,
your beliefs, your tiny, clenched fists - none of this bothers me
enough to change my practices or the list policies; so wail away all
you want. If I've asked you to change your practices, and you have
not, and your mail is quarantined or discarded, and I don't know you
to have contributed to the value of the list, I don't care who you
are - you will suffer as long as you refuse to change. And I will
laugh at your pain in Alighierian delight, especially if you've
failed to heed my advice. Get over it.

Back to your regularly scheduled list traffic,
Steve

more info about webdesign-l: http://webdesign-L.com/
to unsubscribe: http://webdesign-L.com/mailman/listinfo/list
(updated!) list policies: http://webdesign-L.com/policies/
No "top posting", thanks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



SPONSORED LINKS

Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufacturing
+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketing+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software
Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Manufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software

Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufacturing+
software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketing+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Manufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manufact
uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+market
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[system]

I have an Outlook rule that moves Subject less e-mail from this group
directly to the deleted items folder.

I agree, subjects should be required.

________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:09 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Mark
Yes you're correct Todd and I generally let the list "Be THE
List", as it were. I also belong to a number of other lists that are
MUCH
stricter than this list. (For me it makes me less inclined to post, no
one
wants to be publicly "corrected"). The format and the structure of the
list hasn't changed much, (well, not as many amusing threads, but as
moderator I felt that I should show some decorum) in 5 or 6 years. The
tone
of the traffic is pretty much the same as it was 5 or 6 years ago. In
contrast to your comment, earlier this year Todd and I were accused of
being
strutting, martinet, dictators because we/I enforced a rule about a
certain
type of post.
Generally, when a post such as yours shows up I'll watch
pretty
closely to see how the list responds and if there seems to be a general
consensus I'll try to act accordingly, (within the limits of my time,
since
I do work for a living.) There have been a number of etiquette threads,
(PUT
YOUR VERSION NUMBER IN THE SUBJECT LINE) some become practice others
don't.
From a personal view point I'm loath to nitpick on minor issues.
Be that as it may, let's see if anyone else picks up this
thread
and comments.

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:45 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

I've noticed a couple of postings coming through with blank subject
lines.
It's only one thread but if another starts, then there's no way to
follow a
conversation and it'll be almost impossible to search for something in
the
archive. If you could, please include a descriptive subject line.

This list is *very* tame when it comes to posting policies. By
comparison, I
thought I would share a recent post from the list-admin of the Web
Design
list. If not informative, I think you'll at least find it very
entertaining.
;-)

Mark W.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As it appears that there are still people subscribing to this list who:

- didn't bother to read the list policies

/or/

- read them, but don't think that they need to follow them, because

o they're too important
o they're too busy
o they /really/ need the help, so anything goes
o I'm an ogre

I feel compelled to remind you that we're all in this together, that the
list policies are there to help ensure a respectful, informative, and
accessible experience for all, and they are to be ignored at your peril.

As this list community enters its tenth year, and remains stable at
around twenty two hundred members, I'm still surprised (revealing a lack
of imagination, or steadfast refusal to learn from past experience,
apparently) that there are still people who feel the need to explain to
me that what I think about this list doesn't matter, or that it's my
necessary role here to put up with their failures. Neither are true.

I'm also surprised at the sheer numbers of people who simply don't get
basic email etiquette - though with certain practices, such as top
posts,
I can well see that the weight of badly designed mail clients, and time,
are against both me and tradition. But that does not excuse it, it
merely
explains the forces we're up against.

So, I'll kindly reiterate a few basics, in the dim-witted dum spiro,
spero way I have, and with luck they will fall on fertile brains and
sprout there.

1) we're here to help each other and to communicate. The latter is a
necessary precondition for the former. Certain ways of communicating
have been given precedence over the years, from the early days of
email, because they are elegant, simple, accessible, and easily
learned. We use those practices here, because a cadre of early and
long-standing members of the list used them, and because they're a
good set of rules for communications. We shall continue. So should
you, if you want to benefit from your time here. Your formative
experiences with broken mail clients such as Lotus Notes, Microsoft
Mail, Outlook and various Web mail clients hold no weight against
existing Internet messaging etiquette; they merely explain your
ignorance of it where it exists.

2) we're not here out of any obligation to anyone else; the suggestion
that someone, anyone, here "must" help is an absurdity and a
desperate
but ultimately unsuccessful way to get that help, and only shows a
fundamental misunderstanding of the "gift economy", to say nothing of
basic, but socialized, human nature.

3) I'm here because I feel an obligation to continue to take care of
this community, because on good days it's still useful to me, and
because on bad days I still feel that obligation as founder. Not
for a single reason more - not to help you solve your problems, not
to teach you how to use your mail client, not to explain tediously
and repetitiously the basics of email etiquette, though I may from
time to time anyway, because I do care, and that's how I believe the
world /ought/ to be.

4) I enjoy my status as otiose god here - your entreaties, your fury,
your beliefs, your tiny, clenched fists - none of this bothers me
enough to change my practices or the list policies; so wail away all
you want. If I've asked you to change your practices, and you have
not, and your mail is quarantined or discarded, and I don't know you
to have contributed to the value of the list, I don't care who you
are - you will suffer as long as you refuse to change. And I will
laugh at your pain in Alighierian delight, especially if you've
failed to heed my advice. Get over it.

Back to your regularly scheduled list traffic,
Steve

more info about webdesign-l: http://webdesign-L.com/
to unsubscribe:
http://webdesign-L.com/mailman/listinfo/list
(updated!) list policies: http://webdesign-L.com/policies/
No "top posting", thanks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



SPONSORED LINKS

Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring
+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software
Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
actu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+mar
keti
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software

Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+
software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w
4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketin
g+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management
software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
fact
uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+soft
ware
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+ma
rket
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage>
"
on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




SPONSORED LINKS
Manufacturing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database
+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA>
Membership database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ>
Database mortgage software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
acturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+s
oftware&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Data
base+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A>
Pda database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwa
re&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+
marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> Database
management software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw>
Database marketing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
facturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+
software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Dat
abase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw>

________________________________

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


________________________________




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[system]

Ok, How about unsigned Posts?

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:28 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

I have an Outlook rule that moves Subject less e-mail from this group
directly to the deleted items folder.

I agree, subjects should be required.

________________________________

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MAILWARDENGSCPHISHING=NO X-PHISHINGRATING: MAILWARDENGSCPHISHINGRATING=0
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:09 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Mark
Yes you're correct Todd and I generally let the list "Be THE
List", as it were. I also belong to a number of other lists that are
MUCH
stricter than this list. (For me it makes me less inclined to post, no
one
wants to be publicly "corrected"). The format and the structure of the
list hasn't changed much, (well, not as many amusing threads, but as
moderator I felt that I should show some decorum) in 5 or 6 years. The
tone
of the traffic is pretty much the same as it was 5 or 6 years ago. In
contrast to your comment, earlier this year Todd and I were accused of
being
strutting, martinet, dictators because we/I enforced a rule about a
certain
type of post.
Generally, when a post such as yours shows up I'll watch
pretty
closely to see how the list responds and if there seems to be a general
consensus I'll try to act accordingly, (within the limits of my time,
since
I do work for a living.) There have been a number of etiquette threads,
(PUT
YOUR VERSION NUMBER IN THE SUBJECT LINE) some become practice others
don't.
From a personal view point I'm loath to nitpick on minor issues.
Be that as it may, let's see if anyone else picks up this
thread
and comments.

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:45 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

I've noticed a couple of postings coming through with blank subject
lines.
It's only one thread but if another starts, then there's no way to
follow a
conversation and it'll be almost impossible to search for something in
the
archive. If you could, please include a descriptive subject line.

This list is *very* tame when it comes to posting policies. By
comparison, I
thought I would share a recent post from the list-admin of the Web
Design
list. If not informative, I think you'll at least find it very
entertaining.
;-)

Mark W.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As it appears that there are still people subscribing to this list who:

- didn't bother to read the list policies

/or/

- read them, but don't think that they need to follow them, because

o they're too important
o they're too busy
o they /really/ need the help, so anything goes
o I'm an ogre

I feel compelled to remind you that we're all in this together, that the
list policies are there to help ensure a respectful, informative, and
accessible experience for all, and they are to be ignored at your peril.

As this list community enters its tenth year, and remains stable at
around twenty two hundred members, I'm still surprised (revealing a lack
of imagination, or steadfast refusal to learn from past experience,
apparently) that there are still people who feel the need to explain to
me that what I think about this list doesn't matter, or that it's my
necessary role here to put up with their failures. Neither are true.

I'm also surprised at the sheer numbers of people who simply don't get
basic email etiquette - though with certain practices, such as top
posts,
I can well see that the weight of badly designed mail clients, and time,
are against both me and tradition. But that does not excuse it, it
merely
explains the forces we're up against.

So, I'll kindly reiterate a few basics, in the dim-witted dum spiro,
spero way I have, and with luck they will fall on fertile brains and
sprout there.

1) we're here to help each other and to communicate. The latter is a
necessary precondition for the former. Certain ways of communicating
have been given precedence over the years, from the early days of
email, because they are elegant, simple, accessible, and easily
learned. We use those practices here, because a cadre of early and
long-standing members of the list used them, and because they're a
good set of rules for communications. We shall continue. So should
you, if you want to benefit from your time here. Your formative
experiences with broken mail clients such as Lotus Notes, Microsoft
Mail, Outlook and various Web mail clients hold no weight against
existing Internet messaging etiquette; they merely explain your
ignorance of it where it exists.

2) we're not here out of any obligation to anyone else; the suggestion
that someone, anyone, here "must" help is an absurdity and a
desperate
but ultimately unsuccessful way to get that help, and only shows a
fundamental misunderstanding of the "gift economy", to say nothing of
basic, but socialized, human nature.

3) I'm here because I feel an obligation to continue to take care of
this community, because on good days it's still useful to me, and
because on bad days I still feel that obligation as founder. Not
for a single reason more - not to help you solve your problems, not
to teach you how to use your mail client, not to explain tediously
and repetitiously the basics of email etiquette, though I may from
time to time anyway, because I do care, and that's how I believe the
world /ought/ to be.

4) I enjoy my status as otiose god here - your entreaties, your fury,
your beliefs, your tiny, clenched fists - none of this bothers me
enough to change my practices or the list policies; so wail away all
you want. If I've asked you to change your practices, and you have
not, and your mail is quarantined or discarded, and I don't know you
to have contributed to the value of the list, I don't care who you
are - you will suffer as long as you refuse to change. And I will
laugh at your pain in Alighierian delight, especially if you've
failed to heed my advice. Get over it.

Back to your regularly scheduled list traffic,
Steve

more info about webdesign-l: http://webdesign-L.com/
to unsubscribe:
http://webdesign-L.com/mailman/listinfo/list
(updated!) list policies: http://webdesign-L.com/policies/
No "top posting", thanks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



SPONSORED LINKS

Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu>
&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring
+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software
Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man>
&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf>
&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
actu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+mar
keti
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software

Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur>
&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+
software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w
4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketin
g+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man>
&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management
software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu>
&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
fact
uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+soft
ware
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+ma
rket
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage>
"
on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




SPONSORED LINKS
Manufacturing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu>
&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database
+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA>
Membership database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man>
&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ>
Database mortgage software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf>
&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
acturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+s
oftware&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Data
base+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A>
Pda database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur>
&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwa
re&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+
marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> Database
management software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man>
&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw>
Database marketing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu>
&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
facturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+
software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Dat
abase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw>

________________________________

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


________________________________




This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the
sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any
copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other
than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



SPONSORED LINKS

Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufacturing
+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketing+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software
Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Manufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software

Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufacturing+
software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketing+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Manufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manufact
uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+market
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[system]

Shazaam!

________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Ok, How about unsigned Posts?

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:28 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

I have an Outlook rule that moves Subject less e-mail from this group
directly to the deleted items folder.

I agree, subjects should be required.

________________________________

X-SPAM: MAILWARDENGSCSPAM=NO X-SPAMRATING: MAILWARDENGSCSPAMRATING=1
X-SPAMREF: str=0001.0A090203.44632BC3.004C,ss=1,fgs=0 X-CVIRUS:
MAILWARDENGSCVIRUS=NO X-VIRUSRATING: MAILWARDENGSCVIRUSRATING=0
X-CPHISHING:
MAILWARDENGSCPHISHING=NO X-PHISHINGRATING: MAILWARDENGSCPHISHINGRATING=0
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:09 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Mark
Yes you're correct Todd and I generally let the list "Be THE
List", as it were. I also belong to a number of other lists that are
MUCH
stricter than this list. (For me it makes me less inclined to post, no
one
wants to be publicly "corrected"). The format and the structure of the
list hasn't changed much, (well, not as many amusing threads, but as
moderator I felt that I should show some decorum) in 5 or 6 years. The
tone
of the traffic is pretty much the same as it was 5 or 6 years ago. In
contrast to your comment, earlier this year Todd and I were accused of
being
strutting, martinet, dictators because we/I enforced a rule about a
certain
type of post.
Generally, when a post such as yours shows up I'll watch
pretty
closely to see how the list responds and if there seems to be a general
consensus I'll try to act accordingly, (within the limits of my time,
since
I do work for a living.) There have been a number of etiquette threads,
(PUT
YOUR VERSION NUMBER IN THE SUBJECT LINE) some become practice others
don't.
From a personal view point I'm loath to nitpick on minor issues.
Be that as it may, let's see if anyone else picks up this
thread
and comments.

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:45 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

I've noticed a couple of postings coming through with blank subject
lines.
It's only one thread but if another starts, then there's no way to
follow a
conversation and it'll be almost impossible to search for something in
the
archive. If you could, please include a descriptive subject line.

This list is *very* tame when it comes to posting policies. By
comparison, I
thought I would share a recent post from the list-admin of the Web
Design
list. If not informative, I think you'll at least find it very
entertaining.
;-)

Mark W.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As it appears that there are still people subscribing to this list who:

- didn't bother to read the list policies

/or/

- read them, but don't think that they need to follow them, because

o they're too important
o they're too busy
o they /really/ need the help, so anything goes
o I'm an ogre

I feel compelled to remind you that we're all in this together, that the
list policies are there to help ensure a respectful, informative, and
accessible experience for all, and they are to be ignored at your peril.

As this list community enters its tenth year, and remains stable at
around twenty two hundred members, I'm still surprised (revealing a lack
of imagination, or steadfast refusal to learn from past experience,
apparently) that there are still people who feel the need to explain to
me that what I think about this list doesn't matter, or that it's my
necessary role here to put up with their failures. Neither are true.

I'm also surprised at the sheer numbers of people who simply don't get
basic email etiquette - though with certain practices, such as top
posts,
I can well see that the weight of badly designed mail clients, and time,
are against both me and tradition. But that does not excuse it, it
merely
explains the forces we're up against.

So, I'll kindly reiterate a few basics, in the dim-witted dum spiro,
spero way I have, and with luck they will fall on fertile brains and
sprout there.

1) we're here to help each other and to communicate. The latter is a
necessary precondition for the former. Certain ways of communicating
have been given precedence over the years, from the early days of
email, because they are elegant, simple, accessible, and easily
learned. We use those practices here, because a cadre of early and
long-standing members of the list used them, and because they're a
good set of rules for communications. We shall continue. So should
you, if you want to benefit from your time here. Your formative
experiences with broken mail clients such as Lotus Notes, Microsoft
Mail, Outlook and various Web mail clients hold no weight against
existing Internet messaging etiquette; they merely explain your
ignorance of it where it exists.

2) we're not here out of any obligation to anyone else; the suggestion
that someone, anyone, here "must" help is an absurdity and a
desperate
but ultimately unsuccessful way to get that help, and only shows a
fundamental misunderstanding of the "gift economy", to say nothing of
basic, but socialized, human nature.

3) I'm here because I feel an obligation to continue to take care of
this community, because on good days it's still useful to me, and
because on bad days I still feel that obligation as founder. Not
for a single reason more - not to help you solve your problems, not
to teach you how to use your mail client, not to explain tediously
and repetitiously the basics of email etiquette, though I may from
time to time anyway, because I do care, and that's how I believe the
world /ought/ to be.

4) I enjoy my status as otiose god here - your entreaties, your fury,
your beliefs, your tiny, clenched fists - none of this bothers me
enough to change my practices or the list policies; so wail away all
you want. If I've asked you to change your practices, and you have
not, and your mail is quarantined or discarded, and I don't know you
to have contributed to the value of the list, I don't care who you
are - you will suffer as long as you refuse to change. And I will
laugh at your pain in Alighierian delight, especially if you've
failed to heed my advice. Get over it.

Back to your regularly scheduled list traffic,
Steve

more info about webdesign-l: http://webdesign-L.com/
to unsubscribe:
http://webdesign-L.com/mailman/listinfo/list
(updated!) list policies: http://webdesign-L.com/policies/
No "top posting", thanks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



SPONSORED LINKS

Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu

>

&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring
+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software
Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man

>

&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf

>

&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
actu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+mar
keti
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software

Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur

>

&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+
software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w
4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketin
g+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man

>

&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management
software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu

>

&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
fact
uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+soft
ware
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+ma
rket
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage>
"
on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




SPONSORED LINKS
Manufacturing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu

>

&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database
+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA>
Membership database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man

>

&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ>
Database mortgage software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf

>

&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
acturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+s
oftware&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Data
base+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A>
Pda database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur

>

&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwa
re&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+
marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg>
Database
management software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man

>

&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw>
Database marketing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu

>

&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
facturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+
software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Dat
abase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw>

________________________________

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


________________________________




This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the
sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any
copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other
than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



SPONSORED LINKS

Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring
+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software
Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
actu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+mar
keti
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software

Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+
software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w
4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketin
g+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management
software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
fact
uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+soft
ware
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+ma
rket
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage>
"
on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




SPONSORED LINKS
Manufacturing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database
+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA>
Membership database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ>
Database mortgage software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
acturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+s
oftware&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Data
base+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A>
Pda database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwa
re&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+
marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> Database
management software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw>
Database marketing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
facturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+
software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Dat
abase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw>

________________________________

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


________________________________




This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the
sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any
copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other
than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[system]

Banish them to Siberia..With a good spanking to boot!

RG






Ok, How about unsigned Posts?

Shirley Graver
Moderator






I have an Outlook rule that moves Subject less e-mail from this group
directly to the deleted items folder.

I agree, subjects should be required.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[system]

Rick, Rick, Rick
Thats a good spanking IN BOOTS.
SG

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Rick Gors
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:48 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Banish them to Siberia..With a good spanking to boot!

RG






Ok, How about unsigned Posts?

Shirley Graver
Moderator






I have an Outlook rule that moves Subject less e-mail from this group
directly to the deleted items folder.

I agree, subjects should be required.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




SPONSORED LINKS
Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufacturing
+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketing+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Manufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software
Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufacturing+
software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketing+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Manufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manufact
uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+market
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
on the web.


* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


_____




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[system]

Take me over your knee Shirley!

Todd

________________________________

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:04 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Rick, Rick, Rick
Thats a good spanking IN BOOTS.
SG

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
Rick Gors
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:48 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Banish them to Siberia..With a good spanking to boot!

RG






Ok, How about unsigned Posts?

Shirley Graver
Moderator






I have an Outlook rule that moves Subject less e-mail from this group
directly to the deleted items folder.

I agree, subjects should be required.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




SPONSORED LINKS
Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring
+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
actu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+mar
keti
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software

Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+
software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w
4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketin
g+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
fact
uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+soft
ware
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+ma
rket
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software


_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage>
"
on the web.


* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


_____




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




SPONSORED LINKS
Manufacturing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database
+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA>
Membership database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ>
Database mortgage software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
acturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+s
oftware&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Data
base+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A>
Pda database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwa
re&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+
marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> Database
management software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw>
Database marketing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
facturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+
software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Dat
abase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw>

________________________________

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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________________________________




This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
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than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[system]

IMHO, Everyone should include a subject line (preferably with the version
number) and give some name at the end for us to refer to the sender. I have
tried to make this point in the past, without saying it, by referring to the
unsigned person as their useless email address name. I can't understand a
desire for anonymity in a group such as this one. You will find nearly all
my posts with my name and company (it's changed a few times over my history
with the group). Either way, I can also see forgiving everyone a time or
two, maybe even give everyone at least one pass before offlist correction.
I can also see it making sense to add the two above suggestions to the
rules.
More effective than suggesting that everyone that agrees respond, might I
suggest everyone that has issue with either of the suggestions post now to
get their view out there (I might be convinced to change my thinking if
someone has a good reason).

Otherwise Shirley, I say make it so.

$.02
Aaron Hoyt
Vantage Plastics


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Ok, How about unsigned Posts?

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:28 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

I have an Outlook rule that moves Subject less e-mail from this group
directly to the deleted items folder.

I agree, subjects should be required.

________________________________

X-SPAM: MAILWARDENGSCSPAM=NO X-SPAMRATING: MAILWARDENGSCSPAMRATING=1
X-SPAMREF: str=0001.0A090203.44632BC3.004C,ss=1,fgs=0 X-CVIRUS:
MAILWARDENGSCVIRUS=NO X-VIRUSRATING: MAILWARDENGSCVIRUSRATING=0 X-CPHISHING:
MAILWARDENGSCPHISHING=NO X-PHISHINGRATING: MAILWARDENGSCPHISHINGRATING=0
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:09 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Mark
Yes you're correct Todd and I generally let the list "Be THE
List", as it were. I also belong to a number of other lists that are
MUCH
stricter than this list. (For me it makes me less inclined to post, no
one
wants to be publicly "corrected"). The format and the structure of the
list hasn't changed much, (well, not as many amusing threads, but as
moderator I felt that I should show some decorum) in 5 or 6 years. The
tone
of the traffic is pretty much the same as it was 5 or 6 years ago. In
contrast to your comment, earlier this year Todd and I were accused of
being
strutting, martinet, dictators because we/I enforced a rule about a
certain
type of post.
Generally, when a post such as yours shows up I'll watch
pretty
closely to see how the list responds and if there seems to be a general
consensus I'll try to act accordingly, (within the limits of my time,
since
I do work for a living.) There have been a number of etiquette threads,
(PUT
YOUR VERSION NUMBER IN THE SUBJECT LINE) some become practice others
don't.

>From a personal view point I'm loath to nitpick on minor issues.

Be that as it may, let's see if anyone else picks up this
thread
and comments.

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:45 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

I've noticed a couple of postings coming through with blank subject
lines.
It's only one thread but if another starts, then there's no way to
follow a
conversation and it'll be almost impossible to search for something in
the
archive. If you could, please include a descriptive subject line.

This list is *very* tame when it comes to posting policies. By
comparison, I
thought I would share a recent post from the list-admin of the Web
Design
list. If not informative, I think you'll at least find it very
entertaining.
;-)

Mark W.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As it appears that there are still people subscribing to this list who:

- didn't bother to read the list policies

/or/

- read them, but don't think that they need to follow them, because

o they're too important
o they're too busy
o they /really/ need the help, so anything goes
o I'm an ogre

I feel compelled to remind you that we're all in this together, that the
list policies are there to help ensure a respectful, informative, and
accessible experience for all, and they are to be ignored at your peril.

As this list community enters its tenth year, and remains stable at
around twenty two hundred members, I'm still surprised (revealing a lack
of imagination, or steadfast refusal to learn from past experience,
apparently) that there are still people who feel the need to explain to
me that what I think about this list doesn't matter, or that it's my
necessary role here to put up with their failures. Neither are true.

I'm also surprised at the sheer numbers of people who simply don't get
basic email etiquette - though with certain practices, such as top
posts,
I can well see that the weight of badly designed mail clients, and time,
are against both me and tradition. But that does not excuse it, it
merely
explains the forces we're up against.

So, I'll kindly reiterate a few basics, in the dim-witted dum spiro,
spero way I have, and with luck they will fall on fertile brains and
sprout there.

1) we're here to help each other and to communicate. The latter is a
necessary precondition for the former. Certain ways of communicating
have been given precedence over the years, from the early days of
email, because they are elegant, simple, accessible, and easily
learned. We use those practices here, because a cadre of early and
long-standing members of the list used them, and because they're a
good set of rules for communications. We shall continue. So should
you, if you want to benefit from your time here. Your formative
experiences with broken mail clients such as Lotus Notes, Microsoft
Mail, Outlook and various Web mail clients hold no weight against
existing Internet messaging etiquette; they merely explain your
ignorance of it where it exists.

2) we're not here out of any obligation to anyone else; the suggestion
that someone, anyone, here "must" help is an absurdity and a
desperate
but ultimately unsuccessful way to get that help, and only shows a
fundamental misunderstanding of the "gift economy", to say nothing of
basic, but socialized, human nature.

3) I'm here because I feel an obligation to continue to take care of
this community, because on good days it's still useful to me, and
because on bad days I still feel that obligation as founder. Not
for a single reason more - not to help you solve your problems, not
to teach you how to use your mail client, not to explain tediously
and repetitiously the basics of email etiquette, though I may from
time to time anyway, because I do care, and that's how I believe the
world /ought/ to be.

4) I enjoy my status as otiose god here - your entreaties, your fury,
your beliefs, your tiny, clenched fists - none of this bothers me
enough to change my practices or the list policies; so wail away all
you want. If I've asked you to change your practices, and you have
not, and your mail is quarantined or discarded, and I don't know you
to have contributed to the value of the list, I don't care who you
are - you will suffer as long as you refuse to change. And I will
laugh at your pain in Alighierian delight, especially if you've
failed to heed my advice. Get over it.

Back to your regularly scheduled list traffic,
Steve

more info about webdesign-l: http://webdesign-L.com/
to unsubscribe:
http://webdesign-L.com/mailman/listinfo/list
(updated!) list policies: http://webdesign-L.com/policies/
No "top posting", thanks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



SPONSORED LINKS

Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu>
&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring
+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software
Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man>
&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf>
&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
actu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+mar
keti
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software

Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur>
&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+
software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w
4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketin
g+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man>
&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management
software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu>
&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
fact
uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+soft
ware
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+ma
rket
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage>
"
on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




SPONSORED LINKS
Manufacturing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu>
&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database
+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA>
Membership database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man>
&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ>
Database mortgage software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf>
&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
acturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+s
oftware&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Data
base+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A>
Pda database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur>
&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwa
re&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+
marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> Database
management software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man>
&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw>
Database marketing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu>
&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
facturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+
software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Dat
abase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw>

________________________________

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

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Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


________________________________




This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the
sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any
copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other
than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



SPONSORED LINKS

Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufacturing
+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketing+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software
Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Manufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software

Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufacturing+
software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketing+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Manufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manufact
uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+market
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links

[system]

Before we get to far off the mark here, I do think the original post has
merit, so don't forget to comment on that too.

Shirley Graver
Moderator


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[system]

> Before we get to far off the mark here, I do think the
> original post has merit,

I agree

> so don't forget to comment on that too.

I always prefer posting inline over top or bottom posting, like I am doing
here. That way the reader can see exactly what you are commenting on. It
also eliminates repeating an entire post for those who are in digest mode.

Brian

[system]

Aaron,
The only caveat I have which really doesn't apply to this list since its
private, is that if you are on a public group and sign your full name it
WILL show up in a google search. (discovered this when I googled myself for
fun). A clear identification of company and some initial/name combination
would serve for the paranoid types. I work very hard to keep the spiders
away from my name and I don't like it when "I" show up in google.

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:24 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


IMHO, Everyone should include a subject line (preferably with the version
number) and give some name at the end for us to refer to the sender. I have
tried to make this point in the past, without saying it, by referring to the
unsigned person as their useless email address name. I can't understand a
desire for anonymity in a group such as this one. You will find nearly all
my posts with my name and company (it's changed a few times over my history
with the group). Either way, I can also see forgiving everyone a time or
two, maybe even give everyone at least one pass before offlist correction.
I can also see it making sense to add the two above suggestions to the
rules.
More effective than suggesting that everyone that agrees respond, might I
suggest everyone that has issue with either of the suggestions post now to
get their view out there (I might be convinced to change my thinking if
someone has a good reason).

Otherwise Shirley, I say make it so.

$.02
Aaron Hoyt
Vantage Plastics


-----Original Message-----
X-SPAM: MAILWARDENGSCSPAM=NO X-SPAMRATING: MAILWARDENGSCSPAMRATING=1
X-SPAMREF: str=0001.0A090204.446338EF.005C,ss=1,fgs=0 X-CVIRUS:
MAILWARDENGSCVIRUS=NO X-VIRUSRATING: MAILWARDENGSCVIRUSRATING=0 X-CPHISHING:
MAILWARDENGSCPHISHING=NO X-PHISHINGRATING: MAILWARDENGSCPHISHINGRATING=0
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Ok, How about unsigned Posts?

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:28 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

I have an Outlook rule that moves Subject less e-mail from this group
directly to the deleted items folder.

I agree, subjects should be required.

________________________________

X-SPAM: MAILWARDENGSCSPAM=NO X-SPAMRATING: MAILWARDENGSCSPAMRATING=1
X-SPAMREF: str=0001.0A090203.44632BC3.004C,ss=1,fgs=0 X-CVIRUS:
MAILWARDENGSCVIRUS=NO X-VIRUSRATING: MAILWARDENGSCVIRUSRATING=0 X-CPHISHING:
MAILWARDENGSCPHISHING=NO X-PHISHINGRATING: MAILWARDENGSCPHISHINGRATING=0
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:09 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Mark
Yes you're correct Todd and I generally let the list "Be THE
List", as it were. I also belong to a number of other lists that are
MUCH
stricter than this list. (For me it makes me less inclined to post, no
one
wants to be publicly "corrected"). The format and the structure of the
list hasn't changed much, (well, not as many amusing threads, but as
moderator I felt that I should show some decorum) in 5 or 6 years. The
tone
of the traffic is pretty much the same as it was 5 or 6 years ago. In
contrast to your comment, earlier this year Todd and I were accused of
being
strutting, martinet, dictators because we/I enforced a rule about a
certain
type of post.
Generally, when a post such as yours shows up I'll watch
pretty
closely to see how the list responds and if there seems to be a general
consensus I'll try to act accordingly, (within the limits of my time,
since
I do work for a living.) There have been a number of etiquette threads,
(PUT
YOUR VERSION NUMBER IN THE SUBJECT LINE) some become practice others
don't.

>From a personal view point I'm loath to nitpick on minor issues.

Be that as it may, let's see if anyone else picks up this
thread
and comments.

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:45 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

I've noticed a couple of postings coming through with blank subject
lines.
It's only one thread but if another starts, then there's no way to
follow a
conversation and it'll be almost impossible to search for something in
the
archive. If you could, please include a descriptive subject line.

This list is *very* tame when it comes to posting policies. By
comparison, I
thought I would share a recent post from the list-admin of the Web
Design
list. If not informative, I think you'll at least find it very
entertaining.
;-)

Mark W.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As it appears that there are still people subscribing to this list who:

- didn't bother to read the list policies

/or/

- read them, but don't think that they need to follow them, because

o they're too important
o they're too busy
o they /really/ need the help, so anything goes
o I'm an ogre

I feel compelled to remind you that we're all in this together, that the
list policies are there to help ensure a respectful, informative, and
accessible experience for all, and they are to be ignored at your peril.

As this list community enters its tenth year, and remains stable at
around twenty two hundred members, I'm still surprised (revealing a lack
of imagination, or steadfast refusal to learn from past experience,
apparently) that there are still people who feel the need to explain to
me that what I think about this list doesn't matter, or that it's my
necessary role here to put up with their failures. Neither are true.

I'm also surprised at the sheer numbers of people who simply don't get
basic email etiquette - though with certain practices, such as top
posts,
I can well see that the weight of badly designed mail clients, and time,
are against both me and tradition. But that does not excuse it, it
merely
explains the forces we're up against.

So, I'll kindly reiterate a few basics, in the dim-witted dum spiro,
spero way I have, and with luck they will fall on fertile brains and
sprout there.

1) we're here to help each other and to communicate. The latter is a
necessary precondition for the former. Certain ways of communicating
have been given precedence over the years, from the early days of
email, because they are elegant, simple, accessible, and easily
learned. We use those practices here, because a cadre of early and
long-standing members of the list used them, and because they're a
good set of rules for communications. We shall continue. So should
you, if you want to benefit from your time here. Your formative
experiences with broken mail clients such as Lotus Notes, Microsoft
Mail, Outlook and various Web mail clients hold no weight against
existing Internet messaging etiquette; they merely explain your
ignorance of it where it exists.

2) we're not here out of any obligation to anyone else; the suggestion
that someone, anyone, here "must" help is an absurdity and a
desperate
but ultimately unsuccessful way to get that help, and only shows a
fundamental misunderstanding of the "gift economy", to say nothing of
basic, but socialized, human nature.

3) I'm here because I feel an obligation to continue to take care of
this community, because on good days it's still useful to me, and
because on bad days I still feel that obligation as founder. Not
for a single reason more - not to help you solve your problems, not
to teach you how to use your mail client, not to explain tediously
and repetitiously the basics of email etiquette, though I may from
time to time anyway, because I do care, and that's how I believe the
world /ought/ to be.

4) I enjoy my status as otiose god here - your entreaties, your fury,
your beliefs, your tiny, clenched fists - none of this bothers me
enough to change my practices or the list policies; so wail away all
you want. If I've asked you to change your practices, and you have
not, and your mail is quarantined or discarded, and I don't know you
to have contributed to the value of the list, I don't care who you
are - you will suffer as long as you refuse to change. And I will
laugh at your pain in Alighierian delight, especially if you've
failed to heed my advice. Get over it.

Back to your regularly scheduled list traffic,
Steve

more info about webdesign-l: http://webdesign-L.com/
to unsubscribe:
http://webdesign-L.com/mailman/listinfo/list
(updated!) list policies: http://webdesign-L.com/policies/
No "top posting", thanks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



SPONSORED LINKS

Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu>
&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu>
&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring
+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software
Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man>
&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man>
&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf>
&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf>
&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
actu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+mar
keti
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software

Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur>
&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur>
&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+
software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w
4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketin
g+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man>
&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man>
&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+sof
twar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+m
arke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management
software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu>
&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu>
&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
fact
uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+soft
ware
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+ma
rket
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage>
"
on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




SPONSORED LINKS
Manufacturing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu>
&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu>
&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softw
are&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database
+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA>
Membership database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man>
&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man>
&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ>
Database mortgage software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf>
&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf>
&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manuf
acturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+s
oftware&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Data
base+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A>
Pda database software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur>
&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur>
&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufactur
ing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwa
re&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+
marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> Database
management software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man>
&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man>
&k=Database+management+software&w1=Man
ufacturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage
+software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Da
tabase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw>
Database marketing software
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu>
&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu>
&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manu
facturing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+
software&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Dat
abase+marketing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw>

________________________________

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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________________________________




This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/>
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links



SPONSORED LINKS

Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufacturing

> &k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufacturing

+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketing+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software
Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Manufac

> &k=Membership+database+software&w1=Manufac

turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manufactu

> &k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manufactu

ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software

Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufacturing+

> &k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufacturing+

software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketing+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Manufac

> &k=Database+management+software&w1=Manufac

turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manufact

> &k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manufact

uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+market
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links










Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links




SPONSORED LINKS
Manufacturing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Manufacturing+software&w1=Manufacturing
+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w4=P
da+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketing+s
oftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=OG5F3819UOUOg63i0bu6kA> software Membership
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Membership+database+software&w1=Manufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=N5BGdur84p-jyuOomcQdbQ> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+mortgage+software&w1=Manufactu
ring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&
w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketi
ng+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=8rvcSQnCqJhTCZu-0Si39A> mortgage software
Pda
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pda+database+software&w1=Manufacturing+
software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software&w4=Pd
a+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marketing+so
ftware&c=6&s=188&.sig=u3KQrTRPAQfsWIT39aHDkg> database software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+management+software&w1=Manufac
turing+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+softwar
e&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+marke
ting+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=R3CF3ODPY4gwjDZjykQYvw> management software
Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Database+marketing+software&w1=Manufact
uring+software&w2=Membership+database+software&w3=Database+mortgage+software
&w4=Pda+database+software&w5=Database+management+software&w6=Database+market
ing+software&c=6&s=188&.sig=lmBkRUiBtvHI1u5dkymDcw> marketing software

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "vantage <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage> "
on the web.


* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vantage-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


_____




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[system]

I prefer top posting except in a few particular cases where in-line works better (answering specific questions in a bulleted or numbered list). Top posting puts the relevent "new" stuff at the top of the thread but allows referencing the prior text. One nitpick on this (and I forget as often as anyone)....strip off the Yahoo generated junk at the bottom last thing before sending.

For subject...our email server instantly deletes any email without a subject. And sends the sender a nasty message too. I always put either my version or OT in brackets at the start ( such as [6.1] or [OT] ) so I can parse easier in searchs or sub-foldering wizards. If the subject is related to a patch level I add that as well. I would really appreciate this for the 8.0 specific issues that don't mean anything now but can be organzed for later reference.

For signature...my personal rule has always been for new threads...I use full name and company name. For replies on an existing thread just first name....except I always add last initial too due to the (seemingly to me anyway) alarming number of Todds aournd here. Easy to confuse which Todd made which comment.

-Todd C.

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:42 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Aaron,
The only caveat I have which really doesn't apply to this list since its
private, is that if you are on a public group and sign your full name it
WILL show up in a google search. (discovered this when I googled myself for
fun). A clear identification of company and some initial/name combination
would serve for the paranoid types. I work very hard to keep the spiders
away from my name and I don't like it when "I" show up in google.

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:24 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


IMHO, Everyone should include a subject line (preferably with the version
number) and give some name at the end for us to refer to the sender. I have
tried to make this point in the past, without saying it, by referring to the
unsigned person as their useless email address name. I can't understand a
desire for anonymity in a group such as this one. You will find nearly all
my posts with my name and company (it's changed a few times over my history
with the group). Either way, I can also see forgiving everyone a time or
two, maybe even give everyone at least one pass before offlist correction.
I can also see it making sense to add the two above suggestions to the
rules.
More effective than suggesting that everyone that agrees respond, might I
suggest everyone that has issue with either of the suggestions post now to
get their view out there (I might be convinced to change my thinking if
someone has a good reason).

Otherwise Shirley, I say make it so.

$.02
Aaron Hoyt
Vantage Plastics


-----Original Message-----
X-SPAM: MAILWARDENGSCSPAM=NO X-SPAMRATING: MAILWARDENGSCSPAMRATING=1
X-SPAMREF: str=0001.0A090204.446338EF.005C,ss=1,fgs=0 X-CVIRUS:
MAILWARDENGSCVIRUS=NO X-VIRUSRATING: MAILWARDENGSCVIRUSRATING=0 X-CPHISHING:
MAILWARDENGSCPHISHING=NO X-PHISHINGRATING: MAILWARDENGSCPHISHINGRATING=0
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Ok, How about unsigned Posts?

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:28 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

I have an Outlook rule that moves Subject less e-mail from this group
directly to the deleted items folder.

I agree, subjects should be required.

________________________________

X-SPAM: MAILWARDENGSCSPAM=NO X-SPAMRATING: MAILWARDENGSCSPAMRATING=1
X-SPAMREF: str=0001.0A090203.44632BC3.004C,ss=1,fgs=0 X-CVIRUS:
MAILWARDENGSCVIRUS=NO X-VIRUSRATING: MAILWARDENGSCVIRUSRATING=0 X-CPHISHING:
MAILWARDENGSCPHISHING=NO X-PHISHINGRATING: MAILWARDENGSCPHISHINGRATING=0
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Shirley Graver
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:09 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette


Mark
Yes you're correct Todd and I generally let the list "Be THE
List", as it were. I also belong to a number of other lists that are
MUCH
stricter than this list. (For me it makes me less inclined to post, no
one
wants to be publicly "corrected"). The format and the structure of the
list hasn't changed much, (well, not as many amusing threads, but as
moderator I felt that I should show some decorum) in 5 or 6 years. The
tone
of the traffic is pretty much the same as it was 5 or 6 years ago. In
contrast to your comment, earlier this year Todd and I were accused of
being
strutting, martinet, dictators because we/I enforced a rule about a
certain
type of post.
Generally, when a post such as yours shows up I'll watch
pretty
closely to see how the list responds and if there seems to be a general
consensus I'll try to act accordingly, (within the limits of my time,
since
I do work for a living.) There have been a number of etiquette threads,
(PUT
YOUR VERSION NUMBER IN THE SUBJECT LINE) some become practice others
don't.

>From a personal view point I'm loath to nitpick on minor issues.

Be that as it may, let's see if anyone else picks up this
thread
and comments.

Shirley Graver
Moderator

_____

From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
rfc822 Compliance issue From: added by system POTENTIAL SPAM
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:45 PM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

I've noticed a couple of postings coming through with blank subject
lines.
It's only one thread but if another starts, then there's no way to
follow a
conversation and it'll be almost impossible to search for something in
the
archive. If you could, please include a descriptive subject line.

This list is *very* tame when it comes to posting policies. By
comparison, I
thought I would share a recent post from the list-admin of the Web
Design
list. If not informative, I think you'll at least find it very
entertaining.
;-)

Mark W.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As it appears that there are still people subscribing to this list who:

- didn't bother to read the list policies

/or/

- read them, but don't think that they need to follow them, because

o they're too important
o they're too busy
o they /really/ need the help, so anything goes
o I'm an ogre

I feel compelled to remind you that we're all in this together, that the
list policies are there to help ensure a respectful, informative, and
accessible experience for all, and they are to be ignored at your peril.

As this list community enters its tenth year, and remains stable at
around twenty two hundred members, I'm still surprised (revealing a lack
of imagination, or steadfast refusal to learn from past experience,
apparently) that there are still people who feel the need to explain to
me that what I think about this list doesn't matter, or that it's my
necessary role here to put up with their failures. Neither are true.

I'm also surprised at the sheer numbers of people who simply don't get
basic email etiquette - though with certain practices, such as top
posts,
I can well see that the weight of badly designed mail clients, and time,
are against both me and tradition. But that does not excuse it, it
merely
explains the forces we're up against.

So, I'll kindly reiterate a few basics, in the dim-witted dum spiro,
spero way I have, and with luck they will fall on fertile brains and
sprout there.

1) we're here to help each other and to communicate. The latter is a
necessary precondition for the former. Certain ways of communicating
have been given precedence over the years, from the early days of
email, because they are elegant, simple, accessible, and easily
learned. We use those practices here, because a cadre of early and
long-standing members of the list used them, and because they're a
good set of rules for communications. We shall continue. So should
you, if you want to benefit from your time here. Your formative
experiences with broken mail clients such as Lotus Notes, Microsoft
Mail, Outlook and various Web mail clients hold no weight against
existing Internet messaging etiquette; they merely explain your
ignorance of it where it exists.

2) we're not here out of any obligation to anyone else; the suggestion
that someone, anyone, here "must" help is an absurdity and a
desperate
but ultimately unsuccessful way to get that help, and only shows a
fundamental misunderstanding of the "gift economy", to say nothing of
basic, but socialized, human nature.

3) I'm here because I feel an obligation to continue to take care of
this community, because on good days it's still useful to me, and
because on bad days I still feel that obligation as founder. Not
for a single reason more - not to help you solve your problems, not
to teach you how to use your mail client, not to explain tediously
and repetitiously the basics of email etiquette, though I may from
time to time anyway, because I do care, and that's how I believe the
world /ought/ to be.

4) I enjoy my status as otiose god here - your entreaties, your fury,
your beliefs, your tiny, clenched fists - none of this bothers me
enough to change my practices or the list policies; so wail away all
you want. If I've asked you to change your practices, and you have
not, and your mail is quarantined or discarded, and I don't know you
to have contributed to the value of the list, I don't care who you
are - you will suffer as long as you refuse to change. And I will
laugh at your pain in Alighierian delight, especially if you've
failed to heed my advice. Get over it.

Back to your regularly scheduled list traffic,
Steve





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[system]

Just a difference of opinion, I prefer to use Outlook sorting by
Conversation, and then I have a thread format.
I realize that it is more difficult for the Digest reader, but...the format
has been discussed several times in my history with the list and has always
come back to if you prefer, do it the way that you are comfortable with but
most of us will continue the way we are.
Just so you understand the other side as I do also understand your point of
view (providing continuity and clarity)...
I don't like to spend time rereading the thread that is being commented on
as read that already and would just like to read the new comments, although
there are cases that it is needed in order to make the response reasonably
clear.
I will be happy to read and respond to you either way.

Aaron
Vantage Plastics


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Brian Boyes
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:38 AM
To: 'vantage@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Vantage] A suggestion on list etiquette

> Before we get to far off the mark here, I do think the
> original post has merit,

I agree

> so don't forget to comment on that too.

I always prefer posting inline over top or bottom posting, like I am doing
here. That way the reader can see exactly what you are commenting on. It
also eliminates repeating an entire post for those who are in digest mode.

Brian




Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have
already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/links
Yahoo! Groups Links

[system]

I've waited to post my suggestions until the others have put forth theirs.

But first I want to commend Shirley and Todd because the signal-to-noise ratio
on this list is one of the better among the nine newsgroups that I follow. It
is wonderful to have a technology list that stays on-topic and keeps the
vendors at bay. I also believe that since this list is completely independent
of Epicor, it really fosters a helpful, friendly and open environment for the
users of this list - a little hostile toward Epicor; appropriately at times -
but certainly helpful to the users of their software.

And being helpful to the users of the group is what list etiquette/list
guidelines are all about. Here's the "official netiquette" document:
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html

Hell, even etiquette queen Emily Post has rules of etiquette for technology:
(http://www.emilypost.com/etiquette/technology/netiquette.htm)

If this list was nothing but vendors trolling for clients or just pre-digested
Epic-speak then it wouldn't be nearly as useful as it is. Like anything, there
is some room for improvement. Here are my humble suggestions and why I believe
that they would make the list even more useful:

Subject lines:
Definitely include a subject. Many spam packages strip blank subject headers
off. This is also a fairly active group and people have limited time so your
chances of someone reading your post without a subject are lower. As Todd C
suggested, I would also make the subject line helpful. Including package
(Vantage or Vista) along with any version and/or patch level is quite helpful.
Digest users should change the subject from "Digest Number ####" back to the
original subject line or go online to reply.

Also, if the topic changes in a thread, change the subject to indicate the
focus of the new thread. For example:

Really controlling people - was "A suggestion on list etiquette"

;-)

Trimming your post:
I don't really care if one top posts, bottom posts, or inline posts
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting) but *please* take a moment to
delete text that does not relate to your posting. Yes, it is convenient to
just press reply, type, and send but it leaves such a mess. Leaving all of
that superfluous text is very inconvenient to digest readers really annoying
when searching the archive.

BTW, you can search the group's message archive here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages. But beware, you'll get pages
and pages and pages and pages of duplicated text. When I replied to this
message, it contained every single keystroke since the start of the thread.
Yikes!!!

Post your solutions:
Once you get your answer, post your solution so that others can learn from
your experience. How many times have you seen a question and wondered what the
answer was? Some people prefer to answer offline.

Privately thank people:
No need to add another letter to the archive if all you want to do is thank
someone. Although, it's completely appropriate to include thanks when posting
a solution!!!

Thanks for your consideration,

Mark W.

[system]

Also, lets add 'ME TOO's" If you have a file to share, or want a copy of a
shared file.
1. If you want to share POST IT to the file section of the group.
2. If you want a copy, ask off list for a copy.

It may not be till next week before I throw a suggested list of ettyket
ideas at Todd Anderson and then the group. I have an ISO audit coming up
next Monday and Tuesday and the usual mad scramble is on.

Shirley G
Moderator


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]