Rob, Dave, Vic
Just a WILD thought:
Say there are 5,000 Epicor customers that average $45,000 per year
maintenance. If all, in unison dropped maintenance and instead used
those funds (for one year) to buy Epicor stock ($225,000,000). We (the
customers) and now majority stock holders could have a say on how things
are done. This would be like the Green Bay Wisconsin taxpayers who own
the Packer franchise.
We agree with some of what each of you say.
Our company believes an Epicor buyout (by this type of predatory buyer)
would be a disaster.
And, while the software industry may be like Vic says, and while I agree
Vantage may be the "best of the worst". It is disconcerting to accept
that the "best of the worst" is somehow OK. The industry has lowered the
performance bar, and convinced all of the sheep (oops I mean customers)
to go along.
This thinking is why the software companies have the mindset that they
do.
Matt
________________________________
From:
vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Vic Drecchio
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 10:31 AM
To:
vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Re: Epicor Costs (was Epicor 9 and Business
Intelligence)
Dave,
That's what I have always jokingly (yet seriously) said: "Vantage/Vista
is the Best of the Worst". Find me an ERP solution that is perfect (for
any price) and I'll buy you dinner at Morton's in Honolulu.
You won't find one. ERP software vendors have a difficult threshold to
be cognizant of and carefully manage: They have to be generic enough to
pertain to a wide array of manufacturing industries yet specific enough
to add immediate value. They have to be compatible with the cabinet
manufacturer in the backwoods of Alabama and also work for the
heart-monitor manufacturer in San Diego. They're both
manufacturing-style companies, but two completely different animals. If
the software worked perfectly out-of-the-box for any of our companies,
the price tag would be $200 Million vs. what we pay now.
It's up to us, as system managers, admins, support staff, and developers
to tweak the product to work in the best interests of our companies and
find creative ways to work around system bugs. There's always going to
be bugs and challenges. That's what we're paid for. So suck it up and
deal with it. :-) I get as frustrated as any of us do with system bugs
and patches, but it's nothing abnormal in the software industry (very
unfortunately). Microsoft invented the term "hot-fix" and "patch", I
think.
-----Original Message-----
From:
vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of Dave Thomas
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 10:03 AM
To:
vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Epicor Costs (was Epicor 9 and Business
Intelligence)
Rob,
Like most on this list, I have had frustrations with Vantage - and
with every other software I have ever worked with for the past 30
years. I have also been in the middle of "vulture capital" buyouts
of software companies. Every one has been a disaster for the users
of the software. The typical model is to stop all significant new
development, fire most of the developers and much of the support
staff, then raise the price of maintenance. It is quite likely they
would seek a quick turnaround of their investment by selling off
pieces of Epicor to other software companies. The result would be
anything but positive for Vantage users.
In my opinion, the Epicor board is doing exactly the right thing. I
hope they continue to reject this offer. In spite of the problems,
which are typical of software in the early stages of its life cycle,
I do not know of any other ERP software I would rather be working
with. Do you?
Dave Thomas
--- In
vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com> ,
Robert Brown <robertb_versa@...>
wrote:
>
> Duh: Once/twice a CENTURY event (not decade!!!!)
>
> Rob
>
> --- On Thu, 11/20/08, Robert Brown <robertb_versa@...> wrote:
>
> From: Robert Brown <robertb_versa@...>
> Subject: Re: [Vantage] Epicor Costs (was Epicor 9 and Business
Intelligence)
> To: vantage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vantage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 3:47 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> With 9 out of 10 new businesses statistically failing within 5
years, a recession of the magnitude we are in (a once/twice a decade
event) means (unfortunately) some of us on this UG may not be around
by the time business conditions recover.
>
> Before a business fails, it of course won't go shopping for a new
ERP system - but it might reinstall the old one (ours could be un-
mothballed in days - and we'd probably be better off for it if we
were honest about it).
>
> OR the on-the-edge- of-failure company will HAVE TO forego the
maintenance fees. (What the heck are we really getting for the
maintenance contract anyway except nonsensical "program works as
designed" answers until a groundswell of installations report the
same thing?)
>
> In this economy, Epicor BETTER be anticipating that will happen to
a greater degree than in the past.
>
> (Goodbye cash cow.)
>
> We'd all be better off if they DID plan for the worst (and
refocus) and hope/work for the best. I WANT them to succeed so our
investment will not have been for nothing.
>
> I'm not seeing any evidence of that though.
>
> I'd prefer that change (quickly) so they DON'T become yet another
MRP/ERP history lesson.
>
> Rob
>
> --- On Thu, 11/20/08, Todd Caughey <caugheyt@harveyvoge l.com>
wrote:
>
> From: Todd Caughey <caugheyt@harveyvoge l.com>
> Subject: [Vantage] Epicor Costs (was Epicor 9 and Business
Intelligence)
> To: "vantage@yahoogroups .com" <vantage@yahoogroups .com>
> Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 10:17 AM
>
> Rob I agree with most of what you've said. I don't know that much
about the investment company that made the buyout offer but it
sounds typical.
>
> Not to be a wet blanket but I am afraid retention of customers may
not be that big a threat to Epicor. Although slow times are great
times to implement new systems (key people are not too busy to
participate) it also means switching to a new system would be hugely
costly at a time when budgets and cash flow are tight. There is an
implicit barrier to switching so Epicor may not have to place that
much attention on retention... except for the Support cash cow. For
the same reason that employers can freeze or cut salaries in a bad
economy....it may be very hard, or risky, to find a job as secure
somewhere else so people hunker down and take their lumps.
>
> If system sales slow down then (IMHO) it would be in Epicor's
interest to get as many lagging pre-8.x customers upgraded in order
to not be as stretched in the support area. As noted above for those
customers on maintenance plans (ie. it's already paid for) a slow
time would be a great time to upgrade. People have more time to do
it right. Also, upgraders are more committed to the product (for
awhile anyway) and less likely to drop support. A little investment
in migration tools for laggards not willing (or able) to pay for
consultants could pay off big in reduced support side costs for
older versions while retaining maintenance agreement revenue streams.
>
> On the subject of cost cutting....I think everyone is being
proactive about this. Not deep draconian cuts (yet) but just being
wiser about spending after a fairly loose period. Driving out
complacency. Raising the ROI bar and shortening the payback period
requirements. The things we should always do. We're cutting costs
too but still investing where it makes sense. We will probably still
buy the AMM module this year if we can prove it will do the things
that provide the payback.
>
> And, yes, many people at Epicor monitor this and every other known
public reference to Epicor paying keen attention to sentiment &
comments and providing spin control as needed. Personal experience
tells me the silence is public only.
>
> -Todd C.
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@ yahoogroups .com]
On Behalf Of Robert Brown
> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 10:20 PM
> To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Epicor 9 and Business Intelligence
>
> The Board's rejection of the recent buyout offer was disappointing.
>
> While the major shareholder that made the offer is an
internationally know buy-and-bleed- them-dry company (legal lone
sharks that do international business 'bust outs' that would make
organized crime proud), at least that company has cash to burn that
would help Epicor ride out the recession.
>
> ERP vendors - even of Epicor's market magnitude (although they ARE
cash poor) - drop like flies during recessions as potential customer
companies delay major investments in proven low-pay-back initiatives
like ERP implementations (statistically/ historically proven low-pay-
back in reality - not in claimed paybacks the vendors hawk).
>
> (It would be interesting to see a cash rich company like Infor
swoop in and make an offer as M&A in the ERP market is the norm
during recessions.)
>
> Any cutbacks Epicor is doing now is probably just sound business
preparation to ride out the recession as their sales WILL drop
during this period. Hopefully, they are retaining personnel
necessary to focus upon business RETENTION (keeping us already
paying customers happy).
>
> It may prove a blessing in disguise (for the current user base)
unless they are total management & business strategy morons.
>
> A delayed release of v9 during a recession (when sales
expectations MUST be lowered) may mean a better product when it is
finally released. It also SHOULD mean (to retain existing customers)
more attention paid to v8 installs to perhaps actually get them as
right as the underlying paradigms they chose for v8 (many of which
are quite flawed) will allow.
>
> (To the silent cadre of Epicor employees out there I've been told
is as much as 40% of this group's membership: ARE YOU LISTENING?)
>
> Rob
>
> --- On Wed, 11/19/08, Robert Kula <bkula@dudek- bock.com<mailto:
bkula% 40dudek-bock. com>> wrote:
> From: Robert Kula <bkula@dudek- bock.com<mailto: bkula% 40dudek-
bock. com>>
> Subject: RE: [Vantage] Epicor 9 and Business Intelligence
> To: "vantage@yahoogroup s .com<mailto: vantage% 40yahoogroups.
com>" <vantage@yahoogroup s .com<mailto: vantage% 40yahoogroups.
com>>
> Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 6:36 AM
>
> Who knows what is going to happen now that Epicor's Thomas Kelly
has announced personnel cutbacks and expense cutbacks. Only time
will tell.
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
>
> From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@ yahoogroups .com]
On Behalf Of clive.1972
>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:39 AM
>
> To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
>
> Subject: [Vantage] Epicor 9 and Business Intelligence
>
> Looking at posts on here and the small amount of information that
>
> Epicor have released it appears that they intend to beef up the
>
> business intelligence tools that they provide/support ? with
Epicor 9.
>
> Some examples are Microsoft Performance Point 2007 and Epicor Cube
>
> Connect, but at this point we've no idea if these will be supplied
with
>
> Epicor 9 or we'll have to pay extra for them ? (until I hear
otherwise
>
> I'll presume that you have to pay for them along with more annual
>
> maintenance) .
>
> I'd be interested to know what people think of this, but it's
probably
>
> under an NDA until Epicor 9's out.
>
> Also where does this leave CorVu ?. I know that version 5.2 of this
>
> either out now or about to come out, but no information has come
out
>
> about this and how it fits in with Epicor 9's suite of BI tools
(VBI is
>
> mentioned very briefly in one PDF, with no new info on it).
>
> We all know that Epicor has strong ties with Microsoft, so
presumably
>
> this means that in the future they'll be using them for their BI
and
>
> dropping CorVu or at least not promote it ?.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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