Service Connect for CAD?

Hi Brian,

> I was looking for an open source project that I came across a while ago
> and now can¹t remember what its called that looked like it did something
> very similar to Service Connect and was free. I¹m sure its under the
> rubric
> of ³open source web services orchestration engines² but a Google search
> didn¹t find what I was looking for.

The only one that I'm aware of is JitterBit (http://jitterbit.Com). I
haven't tried connecting it to Vantage/Epicor yet. I think we need a way to
get past the Web Security Extensions but I have found some articles/blogs
that can do that in Java (Google "WSE 3.0 Java") Let me know if you work on
it.

Mark W.
 Is anyone using Service Connect to import attributes from Cad systems ? ( we are going to explore importing 'part' data from Pro-E -Intralink).




________________________________
From: Lori Gustafson <lori.gustafson@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:05:46 PM
Subject: [Vantage] Service Connect


Our company is contemplating purchasing this module and we were
wondering what types of ways are other companies using it? Do you find
it to be a helpful tool? Is it easy to work with and setup?

Any information is appreciated.

Regards,

Lori Gustafson

Information Resources

Precision, Inc.

763-852-6718

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We have the bolt-on PLM system from Epicor made by ProCAD (ProFILE). We also have an integration with Solidworks via ProFILE.

We use Service Connect and MS BizTalk to input/modify part attributes, revs, etc.

Works "OK".

Do-able, though. Fire away with any questions you may have.



Vic


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Jackson
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:41 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?

 Is anyone using Service Connect to import attributes from Cad systems ? ( we are going to explore importing 'part' data from Pro-E -Intralink).




________________________________
From: Lori Gustafson <lori.gustafson@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:05:46 PM
Subject: [Vantage] Service Connect


Our company is contemplating purchasing this module and we were
wondering what types of ways are other companies using it? Do you find
it to be a helpful tool? Is it easy to work with and setup?

Any information is appreciated.

Regards,

Lori Gustafson

Information Resources

Precision, Inc.

763-852-6718

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links
Thanks Vic.

1) Is the 'PLM' bolt-on required, as well as Service Connect, to input/modify part attributes?

2) Where does the 'MS BizTalk' come in?

   ( We are on a Progress database)

 Without Service Connect, we'll have to try to 'get' to the Oracle Database that Pro-E (Intralink) uses
with our own 'middle-ware' programs to export/ import, using ODBC or similar.




________________________________
From: Vic Drecchio <vic.drecchio@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:53:31 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?


We have the bolt-on PLM system from Epicor made by ProCAD (ProFILE). We also have an integration with Solidworks via ProFILE.

We use Service Connect and MS BizTalk to input/modify part attributes, revs, etc.

Works "OK".

Do-able, though. Fire away with any questions you may have.

Vic

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Bill Jackson
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:41 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Subject: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?

 Is anyone using Service Connect to import attributes from Cad systems ? ( we are going to explore importing 'part' data from Pro-E -Intralink).

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Lori Gustafson <lori.gustafson@ precision- inc.com>
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:05:46 PM
Subject: [Vantage] Service Connect

Our company is contemplating purchasing this module and we were
wondering what types of ways are other companies using it? Do you find
it to be a helpful tool? Is it easy to work with and setup?

Any information is appreciated.

Regards,

Lori Gustafson

Information Resources

Precision, Inc.

763-852-6718

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------ --------- --------- ------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ linksYahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill,

1) No. Not at all. We just chose to go with Epicor's offering for PLM and it came with ProFILE and all the necessary basic Service Connect workflows.

2) Here's the way the software architects set up PLM:


PLM <--> MSBizTalk <--> Service Connect <--> Vantage


For some reason they couldn't omit the use of MS BizTalk and it is used as PLM's liason to Service Connect. Two middlewares.... doesn't make sense to me either.

PLM is always SQL based. We are a SQL customer for Vantage. It would have made more sense like this:

PLM <--> SQL <--> Vantage

This data interchange could have all been accomplished via triggers and stored procs. This linkage, and it's required troubleshooting, is exhausting.

Since you are Progress, Service Connect should be your choice of getting data in/out of Vantage. I'm not a big fan of Service Connect due to it's learning curve and I loathe learning proprietary software tools. Where else in the IT industry will you see Service Connect? Nowhere.



Vic




-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Jackson
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 9:00 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?

Thanks Vic.

1) Is the 'PLM' bolt-on required, as well as Service Connect, to input/modify part attributes?

2) Where does the 'MS BizTalk' come in?

   ( We are on a Progress database)

 Without Service Connect, we'll have to try to 'get' to the Oracle Database that Pro-E (Intralink) uses
with our own 'middle-ware' programs to export/ import, using ODBC or similar.





________________________________
From: Vic Drecchio <vic.drecchio@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:53:31 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?


We have the bolt-on PLM system from Epicor made by ProCAD (ProFILE). We also have an integration with Solidworks via ProFILE.

We use Service Connect and MS BizTalk to input/modify part attributes, revs, etc.

Works "OK".

Do-able, though. Fire away with any questions you may have.

Vic

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Bill Jackson
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:41 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Subject: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?

 Is anyone using Service Connect to import attributes from Cad systems ? ( we are going to explore importing 'part' data from Pro-E -Intralink).

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Lori Gustafson <lori.gustafson@ precision- inc.com>
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:05:46 PM
Subject: [Vantage] Service Connect

Our company is contemplating purchasing this module and we were
wondering what types of ways are other companies using it? Do you find
it to be a helpful tool? Is it easy to work with and setup?

Any information is appreciated.

Regards,

Lori Gustafson

Information Resources

Precision, Inc.

763-852-6718

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------ --------- --------- ------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ linksYahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links
 Thanks Vic, very helpful info.

 I agree about the Service Connect.
I won't mind learning the 'workflows' language/procedures , Â but all of that learning time won't be good for anything else.

We will more than likely be restrained 'money-wise' anyway, I will probably be encouraged to see what we can do on our own first.

Thanks again.




________________________________
From: Vic Drecchio <vic.drecchio@...>
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 9:18:35 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?


Bill,

1) No. Not at all. We just chose to go with Epicor's offering for PLM and it came with ProFILE and all the necessary basic Service Connect workflows.

2) Here's the way the software architects set up PLM:

PLM <--> MSBizTalk <--> Service Connect <--> Vantage

For some reason they couldn't omit the use of MS BizTalk and it is used as PLM's liason to Service Connect. Two middlewares. ... doesn't make sense to me either.

PLM is always SQL based. We are a SQL customer for Vantage. It would have made more sense like this:

PLM <--> SQL <--> Vantage

This data interchange could have all been accomplished via triggers and stored procs. This linkage, and it's required troubleshooting, is exhausting.

Since you are Progress, Service Connect should be your choice of getting data in/out of Vantage. I'm not a big fan of Service Connect due to it's learning curve and I loathe learning proprietary software tools. Where else in the IT industry will you see Service Connect? Nowhere.

Vic

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Bill Jackson
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 9:00 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?

Thanks Vic.

1) Is the 'PLM' bolt-on required, as well as Service Connect, to input/modify part attributes?

2) Where does the 'MS BizTalk' come in?

   ( We are on a Progress database)

 Without Service Connect, we'll have to try to 'get' to the Oracle Database that Pro-E (Intralink) uses
with our own 'middle-ware' programs to export/ import, using ODBC or similar.

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Vic Drecchio <vic.drecchio@ timco.aero>
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:53:31 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?

We have the bolt-on PLM system from Epicor made by ProCAD (ProFILE). We also have an integration with Solidworks via ProFILE.

We use Service Connect and MS BizTalk to input/modify part attributes, revs, etc.

Works "OK".

Do-able, though. Fire away with any questions you may have.

Vic

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups .com [mailto:vantage@ yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Bill Jackson
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:41 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Subject: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?

 Is anyone using Service Connect to import attributes from Cad systems ? ( we are going to explore importing 'part' data from Pro-E -Intralink).

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Lori Gustafson <lori.gustafson@ precision- inc.com>
To: vantage@yahoogroups .com
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:05:46 PM
Subject: [Vantage] Service Connect

Our company is contemplating purchasing this module and we were
wondering what types of ways are other companies using it? Do you find
it to be a helpful tool? Is it easy to work with and setup?

Any information is appreciated.

Regards,

Lori Gustafson

Information Resources

Precision, Inc.

763-852-6718

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------ --------- --------- ------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ linksYahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------ --------- --------- ------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vantage/ linksYahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vic, I can't speak to the reason for having two pieces of middleware
(obviously non-ideal), but I can guess maybe because Pro.File uses
BizTalk as its integration layer, and Epicor uses ServiceConnect, and so
this is the most straightforward way to integrate the two without lots
of customization.



You've commented a couple of times now that you're unhappy with
Epicor's architectural choice of using ServiceConnect as the middleware
piece, both in terms of its proprietary nature and its presence instead
of having integrations be done based on direct database triggers and the
like.



Speaking for myself, I can say fairly strongly that I wouldn't have
purchased Vantage if Epicor's strategy was to "put everything in the
database". It is exactly these abstraction layers that give Vantage the
flexibility that I'm going to want moving forward to integrate with
other applications and systems. Having a method for automating the
invocation of the business logic of the system is essential. I've spent
too much time in the past trying to decipher and reverse-engineer
complex database table structures for applications I've inherited.
While there is overhead to this layered approach, I'd rather have that
then the alternative of a tightly-coupled system that completely locks
me in to dealing with one vendor and few possibilities for customization
or integration.



I also don't see Service Connect as being *that* proprietary. It is
just a web services orchestration engine. There are others, and you
could use those to talk to and invoke the Vantage web services if you
don't like Epicor's tool. Obviously you need it for your particular
third-party application, but its not some strange thing. If you're
going to expose web services that invokes your system's API, you're
going to need a tool like Service Connect to make that API useful to
people.



-bws



--

Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix /
Picometrix

bspolarich@... ~ 734-864-5618 ~
www.advancedphotonix.com



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Vic Drecchio
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 9:19 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?



Bill,

1) No. Not at all. We just chose to go with Epicor's offering for PLM
and it came with ProFILE and all the necessary basic Service Connect
workflows.

2) Here's the way the software architects set up PLM:

PLM <--> MSBizTalk <--> Service Connect <--> Vantage

For some reason they couldn't omit the use of MS BizTalk and it is used
as PLM's liason to Service Connect. Two middlewares.... doesn't make
sense to me either.

PLM is always SQL based. We are a SQL customer for Vantage. It would
have made more sense like this:

PLM <--> SQL <--> Vantage

This data interchange could have all been accomplished via triggers and
stored procs. This linkage, and it's required troubleshooting, is
exhausting.

Since you are Progress, Service Connect should be your choice of getting
data in/out of Vantage. I'm not a big fan of Service Connect due to it's
learning curve and I loathe learning proprietary software tools. Where
else in the IT industry will you see Service Connect? Nowhere.



.


<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=20369/grpspId=1705007181/msg
Id=72016/stime=1229350721/nc1=3848640/nc2=3848583/nc3=5191953>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brian,

All good points. I agree, Service Connect is better than nothing.

If you are a Vantage Progress-based customer, then this is a wonderful
and welcomed tool. If you're SQL, it's antiquated and unnecessary IMHO.
If someone was truly looking for flexibility and scalability in Vantage,
then ultimately SQL was/is the only way to go. MS SQL is a common
denominator of any enterprise app or tool.

I can't think of any cute analogies at the moment, but for ultimate
flexibility and scalability, a Vantage customer should be on SQL.

Let me reiterate: for *Progress* customers out there you really don't
have much of a choice and Service Connect is great because it offers you
that flexibility. But for SQL customers, using Service Connect is like
putting an elevator in an outhouse... it just doesn't belong there. :-)


(there's my analogy)

But, Brian, you are correct in saying Service Connect is a great tool
for Progress users.




Vic


-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Brian W. Spolarich
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 9:45 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?

Vic, I can't speak to the reason for having two pieces of middleware
(obviously non-ideal), but I can guess maybe because Pro.File uses
BizTalk as its integration layer, and Epicor uses ServiceConnect, and so
this is the most straightforward way to integrate the two without lots
of customization.



You've commented a couple of times now that you're unhappy with
Epicor's architectural choice of using ServiceConnect as the middleware
piece, both in terms of its proprietary nature and its presence instead
of having integrations be done based on direct database triggers and the
like.



Speaking for myself, I can say fairly strongly that I wouldn't have
purchased Vantage if Epicor's strategy was to "put everything in the
database". It is exactly these abstraction layers that give Vantage the
flexibility that I'm going to want moving forward to integrate with
other applications and systems. Having a method for automating the
invocation of the business logic of the system is essential. I've spent
too much time in the past trying to decipher and reverse-engineer
complex database table structures for applications I've inherited.
While there is overhead to this layered approach, I'd rather have that
then the alternative of a tightly-coupled system that completely locks
me in to dealing with one vendor and few possibilities for customization
or integration.



I also don't see Service Connect as being *that* proprietary. It is
just a web services orchestration engine. There are others, and you
could use those to talk to and invoke the Vantage web services if you
don't like Epicor's tool. Obviously you need it for your particular
third-party application, but its not some strange thing. If you're
going to expose web services that invokes your system's API, you're
going to need a tool like Service Connect to make that API useful to
people.



-bws



--

Brian W. Spolarich ~ Manager, Information Services ~ Advanced Photonix /
Picometrix

bspolarich@... ~ 734-864-5618 ~
www.advancedphotonix.com



From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Vic Drecchio
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 9:19 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?



Bill,

1) No. Not at all. We just chose to go with Epicor's offering for PLM
and it came with ProFILE and all the necessary basic Service Connect
workflows.

2) Here's the way the software architects set up PLM:

PLM <--> MSBizTalk <--> Service Connect <--> Vantage

For some reason they couldn't omit the use of MS BizTalk and it is used
as PLM's liason to Service Connect. Two middlewares.... doesn't make
sense to me either.

PLM is always SQL based. We are a SQL customer for Vantage. It would
have made more sense like this:

PLM <--> SQL <--> Vantage

This data interchange could have all been accomplished via triggers and
stored procs. This linkage, and it's required troubleshooting, is
exhausting.

Since you are Progress, Service Connect should be your choice of getting
data in/out of Vantage. I'm not a big fan of Service Connect due to it's
learning curve and I loathe learning proprietary software tools. Where
else in the IT industry will you see Service Connect? Nowhere.



.


<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=20369/grpspId=1705007181/msg
Id=72016/stime=1229350721/nc1=3848640/nc2=3848583/nc3=5191953>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links
Hi Vic,

> If you are a Vantage Progress-based customer, then this is a wonderful
> and welcomed tool. If you're SQL, it's antiquated and unnecessary IMHO.
> If someone was truly looking for flexibility and scalability in Vantage,
> then ultimately SQL was/is the only way to go. MS SQL is a common
> denominator of any enterprise app or tool.

Let me disagree and agree with you there.

If MS/SQL was an object-oriented database and Epicor treated Vantage as such
and put EVERYTHING into the database, including business application logic,
etc. then yes, going the database route is the way to go. And yes, having
your data in SQL Server gives one more tools for reporting than one gets
with OpenEdge. But in the current architecture, not using the Business
Object API (directly or through web services) is *very* dangerous. Stuffing
application logic in database triggers is just plain bad object-oriented
design.

As for SC, I agree that it didn't have to be a proprietary tool. There are
several open source and open standards tools out there. Microsoft belongs to
the Business Process Execution Language for Web Services (BPEL4WS -
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/specification/ws-bpel/) forum,
which defines an interface for web service choreography. Microsoft also
created the Workflow Foundation in .Net to do some of this as well.
(http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa663328.aspx) I think that
Epicor was ahead of the toolsets at the time and purchased the Visual
Workflow designer from somebody to have something to put out there.

The real issue, no matter what tool you use, is the documentation and
understanding of the Business Objects. This is what makes the whole process
a PITA for typical users - IMHO

Mark W.
Agreed that "stuffing" data into SQL tables is very dangerous and not
something to take lightly and without rigorous, comprehensive testing
prior to rolling it out. By using SQL tracing and much of the same
trial-and-error experienced in Service Connect, it can be done safely.
But yes, it takes an incredible amount of forensics to ensure you update
everything the business logic would have. For the average database
admin, this is not something to do unless you have both experience with
Vantage and development skills (not something all database admins
possess).

Good URLs that you supplied for reference.

-----Original Message-----
From: vantage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vantage@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Wonsil
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:37 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Service Connect for CAD?

Hi Vic,

> If you are a Vantage Progress-based customer, then this is a wonderful
> and welcomed tool. If you're SQL, it's antiquated and unnecessary
IMHO.
> If someone was truly looking for flexibility and scalability in
Vantage,
> then ultimately SQL was/is the only way to go. MS SQL is a common
> denominator of any enterprise app or tool.

Let me disagree and agree with you there.

If MS/SQL was an object-oriented database and Epicor treated Vantage as
such
and put EVERYTHING into the database, including business application
logic,
etc. then yes, going the database route is the way to go. And yes,
having
your data in SQL Server gives one more tools for reporting than one gets
with OpenEdge. But in the current architecture, not using the Business
Object API (directly or through web services) is *very* dangerous.
Stuffing
application logic in database triggers is just plain bad object-oriented
design.

As for SC, I agree that it didn't have to be a proprietary tool. There
are
several open source and open standards tools out there. Microsoft
belongs to
the Business Process Execution Language for Web Services (BPEL4WS -
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/specification/ws-bpel/) forum,
which defines an interface for web service choreography. Microsoft also
created the Workflow Foundation in .Net to do some of this as well.
(http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa663328.aspx) I think
that
Epicor was ahead of the toolsets at the time and purchased the Visual
Workflow designer from somebody to have something to put out there.

The real issue, no matter what tool you use, is the documentation and
understanding of the Business Objects. This is what makes the whole
process
a PITA for typical users - IMHO

Mark W.



------------------------------------

Useful links for the Yahoo!Groups Vantage Board are: ( Note: You must
have already linked your email address to a yahoo id to enable access. )
(1) To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder
and Crystal Reports and other 'goodies', please goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/files/.
(2) To search through old msg's goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/messages
(3) To view links to Vendors that provide Vantage services goto:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vantage/linksYahoo! Groups Links
Mark, thanks for responding. I echo what you said here (and you said it
better than I would have).

I was looking for an open source project that I came across a while ago
and now can¹t remember what its called that looked like it did something
very similar to Service Connect and was free. I¹m sure its under the rubric
of ³open source web services orchestration engines² but a Google search
didn¹t find what I was looking for.

-bws


On 12/15/08 10:37 AM, "Mark Wonsil" <mark_wonsil@...> wrote:

> Hi Vic,
>
>> > If you are a Vantage Progress-based customer, then this is a wonderful
>> > and welcomed tool. If you're SQL, it's antiquated and unnecessary IMHO.
>> > If someone was truly looking for flexibility and scalability in Vantage,
>> > then ultimately SQL was/is the only way to go. MS SQL is a common
>> > denominator of any enterprise app or tool.
>
> Let me disagree and agree with you there.
>
> If MS/SQL was an object-oriented database and Epicor treated Vantage as such
> and put EVERYTHING into the database, including business application logic,
> etc. then yes, going the database route is the way to go. And yes, having
> your data in SQL Server gives one more tools for reporting than one gets
> with OpenEdge. But in the current architecture, not using the Business
> Object API (directly or through web services) is *very* dangerous. Stuffing
> application logic in database triggers is just plain bad object-oriented
> design.
>
> As for SC, I agree that it didn't have to be a proprietary tool. There are
> several open source and open standards tools out there. Microsoft belongs to
> the Business Process Execution Language for Web Services (BPEL4WS -
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/specification/ws-bpel/) forum,
> which defines an interface for web service choreography. Microsoft also
> created the Workflow Foundation in .Net to do some of this as well.
> (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa663328.aspx) I think that
> Epicor was ahead of the toolsets at the time and purchased the Visual
> Workflow designer from somebody to have something to put out there.
>
> The real issue, no matter what tool you use, is the documentation and
> understanding of the Business Objects. This is what makes the whole process
> a PITA for typical users - IMHO
>
>
>



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