Vantage Replacement

Yahoo Archive
1
Since I am responsible for Vantage implementation here, there are those
that feel compelled to send me things like the following. Looks like a way
to investigate at least one other application out there.
Nora Story

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-----Original Message-----
From: Darren Mann [SMTP:dmann@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 8:05 AM
To: Vantage User Group (E-mail)
Subject: [Vantage] Vantage Replacement
2
I was told by our company president that I needed to start looking for new
software to replace Vantage. He attended a product show last month and
spoke with several software vendors: Made2Manage, Lilly Software, and a few
others. Some of them told him that Vantage was crap (real surprise from a
competing sales person) but it was a enough to light the fire that started
after the 5.0 upgrade fiasco. He said that Epicor was there but was not
pushing the Vantage product but some new product instead. (Probably eMFG, he
doesn't even know the name changed) He doesn't trust the financial numbers
on his P&L statement (There may be some truth in this due to the costing
problems that still exist in Vantage 5.0). Anyway, he has never even logged
into the system or actually listened to the satisfied users, but instead
chooses to listen to the 1 or 2 disgruntled employees who are still mad we
switched from a custom designed package due to year 2000 incompatibilities.
They will NEVER be happy!

If you can't tell; I am not in favor of this idea but must do what
management wants. I am looking for recommendations or warnings regarding
other Vantage competitors. Quality of support, product testing, response
time to fix reported bugs, and any other unforeseeable inadequacies that are
not apparent until you actually purchase the product. Vent any frustrations
you had with those other packages you moved from to Vantage/eMFG!!! Email
me off list or call if not comfortable airing it for the list.


Thanks in Advance for your input.

Regards,

Darren Mann
Miller Products Co.
dmann@...
Ph. 641-342-2103
3
At the time we looked at Made2Manage, the scheduling was really bad. As a
bean counter, I can tell you that there are very few packages that are
worse than Epicor for accounting, but we looked at several, and none was as
good at manufacturing applications. Good Luck..

-----Original Message-----
From: Darren Mann [SMTP:dmann@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 8:05 AM
To: Vantage User Group (E-mail)
Subject: [Vantage] Vantage Replacement

I was told by our company president that I needed to start looking for new
software to replace Vantage. He attended a product show last month and
spoke with several software vendors: Made2Manage, Lilly Software, and a few
others. Some of them told him that Vantage was crap (real surprise from a
competing sales person) but it was a enough to light the fire that started
after the 5.0 upgrade fiasco. He said that Epicor was there but was not
pushing the Vantage product but some new product instead. (Probably eMFG,
he
doesn't even know the name changed) He doesn't trust the financial numbers
on his P&L statement (There may be some truth in this due to the costing
problems that still exist in Vantage 5.0). Anyway, he has never even logged
into the system or actually listened to the satisfied users, but instead
chooses to listen to the 1 or 2 disgruntled employees who are still mad we
switched from a custom designed package due to year 2000 incompatibilities.
They will NEVER be happy!

If you can't tell; I am not in favor of this idea but must do what
management wants. I am looking for recommendations or warnings regarding
other Vantage competitors. Quality of support, product testing, response
time to fix reported bugs, and any other unforeseeable inadequacies that
are
not apparent until you actually purchase the product. Vent any
frustrations
you had with those other packages you moved from to Vantage/eMFG!!! Email
me off list or call if not comfortable airing it for the list.


Thanks in Advance for your input.

Regards,

Darren Mann
Miller Products Co.
dmann@...
Ph. 641-342-2103


To access the Files Section of our Yahoo!Group for Report Builder and
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4
Darren,

The fact that your president wants to replace Vantage only goes to
show that he has not thought the entire process through. Sure, you
may have 1 or 2 employees who didn't like the change and you may have
had some issues, but to replace Vantage is like throwing away all of
the money that your company has invested. We're not just talking the
price of the application either.
The time that will be wasted training people on a new system is money
already lost when you already have a product that works.
The time that was spent implementing and customizing Vantage will be
money just flushed down the toilet.
The amount of downtime that your company will incur when you do a
massive data conversion will be equal to money lost.
Not to mention compatibility with applications that you will not be
replacing.
If you want to stay with Vantage then I can make one recommendation.
As you will be the one who will have to find this system, it is
entirely within your department to write up an outline on the
strengths/weaknesses and benefits/limitations and overall costs of
competing products and to include Vantage in that outline.
If your president looks at an outline and sees that functionality
will hardly change and that he will be throwing money at a problem
instead of solving it then I wonder how he got to be president.
The salesmen he met are gone and you will be one of the influencing
factors in this decision.
Since he obviously does not look at the program himself, he will
focus on the bottom line. Clear, hard facts written out concisely
that he is about to waste mucho $$$$$ will more than likely drive his
decision and one of the side benefits is that you will come across as
a professional looking out for the company's best interest.
Good luck.

Liam McDonald
eBridge
liam@...


--- In vantage@y..., Darren Mann <dmann@m...> wrote:
> I was told by our company president that I needed to start looking
for new
> software to replace Vantage. He attended a product show last month
and
> spoke with several software vendors: Made2Manage, Lilly Software,
and a few
> others. Some of them told him that Vantage was crap (real surprise
from a
> competing sales person) but it was a enough to light the fire that
started
> after the 5.0 upgrade fiasco. He said that Epicor was there but
was not
> pushing the Vantage product but some new product instead. (Probably
eMFG, he
> doesn't even know the name changed) He doesn't trust the financial
numbers
> on his P&L statement (There may be some truth in this due to the
costing
> problems that still exist in Vantage 5.0). Anyway, he has never
even logged
> into the system or actually listened to the satisfied users, but
instead
> chooses to listen to the 1 or 2 disgruntled employees who are still
mad we
> switched from a custom designed package due to year 2000
incompatibilities.
> They will NEVER be happy!
>
> If you can't tell; I am not in favor of this idea but must do what
> management wants. I am looking for recommendations or warnings
regarding
> other Vantage competitors. Quality of support, product testing,
response
> time to fix reported bugs, and any other unforeseeable inadequacies
that are
> not apparent until you actually purchase the product. Vent any
frustrations
> you had with those other packages you moved from to
Vantage/eMFG!!! Email
> me off list or call if not comfortable airing it for the list.
>
>
> Thanks in Advance for your input.
>
> Regards,
>
> Darren Mann
> Miller Products Co.
> dmann@m...
> Ph. 641-342-2103
5
These are ALL valid points that I have used to bolster my opposition to this
change. And yes, it will be how I plead my case that will sway his opinion.
I do need to still have facts from other software vendors so I can show him
that problems will still occur even with the other ERP systems and that
Epicor is the lesser of all the other evils in the software industry. Maybe
Epicor would like to help me with this project??? Any takers.....

Thanks for your response.

Darren

P.S. He became President because he was the only male child to succeed his
father after retirement/death and owns the company. You might say he
inherited the position.


-----Original Message-----
From: liam@... [mailto:liam@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 9:27 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vantage] Re: Vantage Replacement


Darren,

The fact that your president wants to replace Vantage only goes to
show that he has not thought the entire process through. Sure, you
may have 1 or 2 employees who didn't like the change and you may have
had some issues, but to replace Vantage is like throwing away all of
the money that your company has invested. We're not just talking the
price of the application either.
The time that will be wasted training people on a new system is money
already lost when you already have a product that works.
The time that was spent implementing and customizing Vantage will be
money just flushed down the toilet.
The amount of downtime that your company will incur when you do a
massive data conversion will be equal to money lost.
Not to mention compatibility with applications that you will not be
replacing.
If you want to stay with Vantage then I can make one recommendation.
As you will be the one who will have to find this system, it is
entirely within your department to write up an outline on the
strengths/weaknesses and benefits/limitations and overall costs of
competing products and to include Vantage in that outline.
If your president looks at an outline and sees that functionality
will hardly change and that he will be throwing money at a problem
instead of solving it then I wonder how he got to be president.
6
Oh, he's one of THOSE presidents.

--- In vantage@y..., Darren Mann <dmann@m...> wrote:
> These are ALL valid points that I have used to bolster my
opposition to this
> change. And yes, it will be how I plead my case that will sway his
opinion.
> I do need to still have facts from other software vendors so I can
show him
> that problems will still occur even with the other ERP systems and
that
> Epicor is the lesser of all the other evils in the software
industry. Maybe
> Epicor would like to help me with this project??? Any takers.....
>
> Thanks for your response.
>
> Darren
>
> P.S. He became President because he was the only male child to
succeed his
> father after retirement/death and owns the company. You might say
he
> inherited the position.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: liam@e... [mailto:liam@e...]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 9:27 AM
> To: vantage@y...
> Subject: [Vantage] Re: Vantage Replacement
>
>
> Darren,
>
> The fact that your president wants to replace Vantage only goes to
> show that he has not thought the entire process through. Sure, you
> may have 1 or 2 employees who didn't like the change and you may
have
> had some issues, but to replace Vantage is like throwing away all
of
> the money that your company has invested. We're not just talking
the
> price of the application either.
> The time that will be wasted training people on a new system is
money
> already lost when you already have a product that works.
> The time that was spent implementing and customizing Vantage will
be
> money just flushed down the toilet.
> The amount of downtime that your company will incur when you do a
> massive data conversion will be equal to money lost.
> Not to mention compatibility with applications that you will not be
> replacing.
> If you want to stay with Vantage then I can make one recommendation.
> As you will be the one who will have to find this system, it is
> entirely within your department to write up an outline on the
> strengths/weaknesses and benefits/limitations and overall costs of
> competing products and to include Vantage in that outline.
> If your president looks at an outline and sees that functionality
> will hardly change and that he will be throwing money at a problem
> instead of solving it then I wonder how he got to be president.
7
Darren:
Please add the following open letter to your President when you present your
Vantage comparison.

Dear Sir (President of Miller Products Co.)

Regarding your concerns of the the Data Base product Vantage by Epicor.
We have been using Vantage since 1997, in choosing Vantage we reviewed and
evaluated over 80 comparative products. The Vantage product was by far the
superior, it is STILL a superior product. The upgrade to version 5
certainly did have its problems, (though our move to version 5 went VERY
smoothly). The vendor Epicor has been thoroughly chastised through this
users group list. I sincerely doubt that another product will be better, or
be less trouble, quite the contrary, I sincerely believe that another
product will only cost you MORE dollars and more troubles. I openly invite
you to contact the following individuals in OUR organization for their views
and feelings about Vantage.

Gene Fiocca (President, CEO) Rubber Associates Inc.
Kris Fiocca (Executive Vice President)
Tim Guspodin (Financial Controller)
Toni Bates (Vice President Sales Marketing)

The above are our bottom line people, they can be contacted at Rubber
Associates Inc. (330)745-2186. I hope that you will consider this
invitation along with any others that you might receive from other Vantage
users.

Shirley Graver
(End User)
Sys Admin
Rubber associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
8
Darren,

I think you should solicit Epicor directly for help in pleading your
case. I recommend contacting your Epicor Sales Rep immediately,
explain the situation and prod him/her into a personal visit to meet
with the president of your company. The Epicor sales department
should be able to pull together all of the bottom line numbers and
information on competing products much more comprehensively than you
will be able to.
It is obviously in Epicor's best interest not to lose a single
customer and I would point this out if your rep shows any reluctance.
Go up the ladder in Epicor if you have to.

Good Luck.

Steve Polatas
IT Manager
Wrayco Industries, Inc.

--- In vantage@y..., Darren Mann <dmann@m...> wrote:
> Maybe
> Epicor would like to help me with this project??? Any takers.....
>
> Thanks for your response.
>
> Darren
>
9
Vantage may be the perfect fit for one customer, but not at all a fit for another. It really depends on the type of manufactering you do. Our former system (Growth Power, now Mapics) had some incredible features that Vantage isn't even close to (for us). Unfortunately, they were not going to be Y2K compliant. We made a rush decision to go with Vantage and are suffering for it. MRP is the biggest weakness in Vantage for us (and yes, we have the MRP module) as we make wiring harnesses with hundreds of parts, and have hundreds of jobs open that change due dates constantly. Managing the Materials, Costs, and Schedule has been horrific. And yes, we are in the process of looking at other ERP Vendors while upgrading to Vantage 5.0 at the same time. We'll see who wins the race.

Unfortunately, Epicor has not been very sympathetic or helpful toward making a decision to stay with Vantage. In words yes, but in actions no. Someone on this list suggested making an appeal to Epicor to have them run through things to make the decision more clear. Don't get your hopes up. You may have to pay a consulting fee to be able to do that.

Don't write your president off for wanting to look into a new best solution for you. If Vantage isn't helping him make the decisions that he needs to make, then Vantage may not be the best solution. The question is: IS there a best solution? That could be the "pie-in-the-sky" question of the year. When all is said and done, we may well stay with Vantage, but I would like to say, 'the trip has been VERY bumpy.' [P.S. I think the Tech. Support Staff at Epicor is top notch, professional, and even fun to deal with. Just in case anyone of them might be reading this.]
Shirley, I appreciate your recommendation and will be forwarding it to our president as we consider our situation. I will also be forwarding Darren's letter to our president because I know that what he is considering is a relevant question -at least it is for us.

Troy Funte
Liberty Electronics
----- Original Message -----
From: Shirley Graver
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 6:27 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage Replacement


Darren:
Please add the following open letter to your President when you present your
Vantage comparison.

Dear Sir (President of Miller Products Co.)

Regarding your concerns of the the Data Base product Vantage by Epicor.
We have been using Vantage since 1997, in choosing Vantage we reviewed and
evaluated over 80 comparative products. The Vantage product was by far the
superior, it is STILL a superior product. The upgrade to version 5
certainly did have its problems, (though our move to version 5 went VERY
smoothly). The vendor Epicor has been thoroughly chastised through this
users group list. I sincerely doubt that another product will be better, or
be less trouble, quite the contrary, I sincerely believe that another
product will only cost you MORE dollars and more troubles. I openly invite
you to contact the following individuals in OUR organization for their views
and feelings about Vantage.

Gene Fiocca (President, CEO) Rubber Associates Inc.
Kris Fiocca (Executive Vice President)
Tim Guspodin (Financial Controller)
Toni Bates (Vice President Sales Marketing)

The above are our bottom line people, they can be contacted at Rubber
Associates Inc. (330)745-2186. I hope that you will consider this
invitation along with any others that you might receive from other Vantage
users.

Shirley Graver
(End User)
Sys Admin
Rubber associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
10
I have been in IS for over thirty years, (yea my kids call me the old fart,
but at least one of them is over 30 now). I have been through 6 MRP/ERP
conversions in my career and change is not easy on IS or the office staff
either. You will always have the few individuals who think the previous
system was better no matter what.

I agree with Troy, Vantage may be a perfect fit for one and less than good
for another. This holds true for any software package. Using a consulting
firm NOT associated with a software product can help sometimes making a
decision like this. Just make sure the consultant(s) have experience in both
your type of manufacturing and finance. These people don't come cheap but
when you start looking at an investment of $80,000.00 or more depending on
size plus that much again for training and implementation, another 10K-20K
or more for consulting assistance may be well worth the money.

Another thing to remember is software products are designed to fit certain
needs; Vantage seems to be a "Job" oriented product and if you are doing
repetitive manufacturing it may not be the right fit. We are in transition
from being a job shop to a repetitive manufacturer and we are questioning
using Vantage as we go into the future.

You could get an evaluation of your current Vantage installation. I have
been talking with Calvin Dekker an independent consultant at Misha1 about
doing a post implementation review of our installation and there are others.
You may find that you aren't using the system the way it was designed or not
using all of the tools within the system.

Hip shot decisions aren't the best. We used to have a saying around here
ready, shoot, aim. Since last July we have had management changes and a new
outlook on the business that seems to help and I haven't heard this cliché
for quite a while now.

Warren R. Eddy
Information Services Manager
National Tube Form, LLC
Phone: (219) 478-2363 ext 217
Fax: (219) 478-1043
Warren.Eddy@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Troy Funte [mailto:tfunte@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 8:24 AM
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Vantage] Vantage Replacement

Vantage may be the perfect fit for one customer, but not at all a fit for
another. It really depends on the type of manufactering you do. Our former
system (Growth Power, now Mapics) had some incredible features that Vantage
isn't even close to (for us). Unfortunately, they were not going to be Y2K
compliant. We made a rush decision to go with Vantage and are suffering for
it. MRP is the biggest weakness in Vantage for us (and yes, we have the MRP
module) as we make wiring harnesses with hundreds of parts, and have
hundreds of jobs open that change due dates constantly. Managing the
Materials, Costs, and Schedule has been horrific. And yes, we are in the
process of looking at other ERP Vendors while upgrading to Vantage 5.0 at
the same time. We'll see who wins the race.

Unfortunately, Epicor has not been very sympathetic or helpful toward
making a decision to stay with Vantage. In words yes, but in actions no.
Someone on this list suggested making an appeal to Epicor to have them run
through things to make the decision more clear. Don't get your hopes up.
You may have to pay a consulting fee to be able to do that.

Don't write your president off for wanting to look into a new best
solution for you. If Vantage isn't helping him make the decisions that he
needs to make, then Vantage may not be the best solution. The question is:
IS there a best solution? That could be the "pie-in-the-sky" question of
the year. When all is said and done, we may well stay with Vantage, but I
would like to say, 'the trip has been VERY bumpy.' [P.S. I think the Tech.
Support Staff at Epicor is top notch, professional, and even fun to deal
with. Just in case anyone of them might be reading this.]
Shirley, I appreciate your recommendation and will be forwarding it to
our president as we consider our situation. I will also be forwarding
Darren's letter to our president because I know that what he is considering
is a relevant question -at least it is for us.

Troy Funte
Liberty Electronics
----- Original Message -----
From: Shirley Graver
To: vantage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 6:27 AM
Subject: RE: [Vantage] Vantage Replacement


Darren:
Please add the following open letter to your President when you present
your
Vantage comparison.

Dear Sir (President of Miller Products Co.)

Regarding your concerns of the the Data Base product Vantage by
Epicor.
We have been using Vantage since 1997, in choosing Vantage we reviewed and
evaluated over 80 comparative products. The Vantage product was by far
the
superior, it is STILL a superior product. The upgrade to version 5
certainly did have its problems, (though our move to version 5 went VERY
smoothly). The vendor Epicor has been thoroughly chastised through this
users group list. I sincerely doubt that another product will be better,
or
be less trouble, quite the contrary, I sincerely believe that another
product will only cost you MORE dollars and more troubles. I openly
invite
you to contact the following individuals in OUR organization for their
views
and feelings about Vantage.

Gene Fiocca (President, CEO) Rubber Associates Inc.
Kris Fiocca (Executive Vice President)
Tim Guspodin (Financial Controller)
Toni Bates (Vice President Sales Marketing)

The above are our bottom line people, they can be contacted at Rubber
Associates Inc. (330)745-2186. I hope that you will consider this
invitation along with any others that you might receive from other Vantage
users.

Shirley Graver
(End User)
Sys Admin
Rubber associates Inc.
Cleveland/Akron



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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11
Concerning your President's desire to look at other software alternatives:

As an owner of a consultant company and a previous user totaling over 25
years in manufacturing, please accept these comments:

I have/do work with over 20 different ERP packages in my career. Vantage is
a good package with backing from a good company. Although I do not agree
with all of their ideas and policies, Epicor stands behind thier product and
continues to improve upon it.

My company and I personally get involved in implementations. I can
personally say that I have helped over 100 companies implement ERP packages.
There is always one or two people that do not like what ever package you
chose. But you know what in most cases the software package you chose was
the right fit for your company considering funds, size, growth,
functionality, etc. Your President should not be considering the vices of
the minority.

I have never seen an implementation be successful when management was not
ebhind the project. The fact that your management has never looked at the
software and considers opinions from few tells me that they were not behind
the project. You were destined to fail from the start.

My company and myself also perform Needs analysis and software selection for
companies like yours. Again, Vanatge is a good package that is why my
company and I have recommended it to several clients over the years. We
would not be helping clients work with Vantage if we did not believe in it.

Also being a programmer, I can sympathise with Epicor on some of the bug
issues that come up. It is extremely difficult, impossible and expensive to
test for every known condition. One parameter in your company files may
completely change the way a program works.

No software company is perfect, all companies have good and bad
functionality and yes it would be great to take only the good from about 10
different software comapnies and make a really good package but then again
that is not really feasible either.

I would be happy to talk to you or any of your team about these issues.
Please feel free to contact me off line.


Keith E. Taylor
Vice President
LBSi (Long Business Systems)
216-476-1416 ext 26
keith@...




---------------------------
Long Business Systems, Inc.
12120 Elmwood Ave.
Cleveland, OH 44111
Phone: (216) 476-1416
Fax: (216) 476-1452
http://www.lbsi.com
---------------------------